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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 406 of 2926 (899531)
10-15-2022 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 1:43 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Where are all the fossils that demonstrate the next transitional mutation?
Fossils don't demonstrate mutations. They demonstrate physical changes that may have been caused by a long chain of mutations.
Kleinman writes:
I've already mentioned many examples how the multiplication rule affects descent with modification (adaptation).
Read. We're talking about EXPERIMENTS here. Give us examples of EXPERIMENTS, besides Kishony and Lenski, that confirm your claims.
Kleinman writes:
Descent with modification occurs, biological competition occurs, recombination occurs, selection pressures exist, and universal common descent is mathematically irrational and should not be taught as scientific fact to naive school children.
Read. I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?
Kleinman writes:
... biologists have failed to give a correct explanation of the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
There you go again, claiming that you know better than every biologist. And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 1:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Dredge, posted 10-15-2022 10:54 PM ringo has replied
 Message 411 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:56 PM ringo has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 407 of 2926 (899534)
10-15-2022 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ringo
10-15-2022 9:40 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
ringo writes:
Fossils don't demonstrate mutations. They demonstrate physical changes that may have been caused by a long chain of mutations.
... a vain attempt to dodge the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 10-15-2022 9:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2022 11:08 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 447 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 2:09 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 408 of 2926 (899535)
10-15-2022 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Dredge
10-15-2022 10:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
... a vain attempt to dodge the question.
No. A direct hit. Out of the park.
But you're too stupid to understand why. You still think fossils are just old stones and DNA is a stain on your sheets.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Dredge, posted 10-15-2022 10:54 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-15-2022 11:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 412 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:02 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 409 of 2926 (899538)
10-15-2022 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Dredge
10-15-2022 9:29 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
[QUOTE=top,Kleinman]Where are all the fossils that demonstrate the next transitional mutation?
Dredge:
Oh that's easy ... Those fossils can only be found in the minds of Darwinists.

Some Darwinists even employ artists to draw identikit impressions of the transitionals they see in their minds, which might end up in textbooks portrayed as creatures that really existed.

Darwinist fairy-tales in textbooks ... yep, it's all very funny (but not really)./QUOTE]
If only these Darwinists could figure out the physics and mathematics of Darwinian evolution. Instead they do this:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Dredge, posted 10-15-2022 9:29 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 12:17 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 426 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 9:25 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 410 of 2926 (899540)
10-15-2022 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by AZPaul3
10-15-2022 11:08 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman's equal.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2022 11:08 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:09 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 417 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 4:11 AM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 425 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 9:22 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 411 of 2926 (899542)
10-15-2022 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ringo
10-15-2022 9:40 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Where are all the fossils that demonstrate the next transitional mutation?
ringo:
Fossils don't demonstrate mutations. They demonstrate physical changes that may have been caused by a long chain of mutations.

How do you know that the differences in phenotype you are seeing are due to recombination rather than DNA evolution? Great Danes and Chihuahuas are both canines but their phenotypic difference are due to selective recombination. The point is that you can't use gross anatomy to explain descent with modification. That process has to be measured at the molecular level by DNA sequencing. That's why you shouldn't ignore experiments such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
Kleinman:
I've already mentioned many examples how the multiplication rule affects descent with modification (adaptation).
ringo:
Read. We're talking about EXPERIMENTS here. Give us examples of EXPERIMENTS, besides Kishony and Lenski, that confirm your claims.

Sadly, those examples are the results of real-world experiments. Single selection pressures (antiviral agents, herbicides, pesticides, rodenticides, cancer treatment agents) are tried and they fail due to the emergence of resistant variants. Combination selection pressures are used and they suppress the emergence of resistant variants. But if you want an experiment, try the Desai Lab experiments with yeast.
Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast (with asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction) populations
quote:
Our results here reinforce the conclusion that long-term adaptation to a constant environment can be characterized by widespread clonal interference, contingency, and steady molecular evolution even as fitness increases slow down over time.
Figure B gives the number of fixations in the different populations:
Nowhere in the paper do they indicate how many new adaptive mutations occur or the number of hitchhiking mutations that are fixed. They are also working with much smaller populations than the Lenski experiment, a maximum of 6e7 vs 5e8 before bottlenecking, so descent with modification will be slower. But notice how the Desai team sees the same effect as the Lenski team that fitness increases slowly with time despite the fact that some of this yeast are sexually replicating.
Kleinman:
Descent with modification occurs, biological competition occurs, recombination occurs, selection pressures exist, and universal common descent is mathematically irrational and should not be taught as scientific fact to naive school children.
ringo:
Read. I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?

I'm saying that descent with modification (DNA evolutionary adaptation) requires huge populations to operate even when considering a single selection pressure environment. DNA evolutionary adaptation to multiple simultaneous selection pressures takes orders of magnitude larger populations to operate due to multiple instances of the multiplication rule acting simultaneously. Whether you want to use the word "species" or "kind", you have a mathematical and empirical problem with your idea of universal common descent.
Kleinman:
... biologists have failed to give a correct explanation of the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
ringo:
There you go again, claiming that you know better than every biologist. And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

At least I understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution, why biological competition slows descent with modification and can give the correct mathematical explanation for the Kishony, Lenski, and Desai experiments. Perhaps in a couple more generations biologists will figure this out, perhaps sooner if they take physics and mathematics for science majors, not their survey of physics and survey of math courses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 10-15-2022 9:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by vimesey, posted 10-16-2022 2:32 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 448 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 2:33 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 412 of 2926 (899543)
10-16-2022 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by AZPaul3
10-15-2022 11:08 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
AZPaul3:
No. A direct hit. Out of the park.

But you're too stupid to understand why. You still think fossils are just old stones and DNA is a stain on your sheets.

AZPaul3 will now use his fossil tea-leaf reading skills to explain DNA evolutionary adaptation for the Kishony and Lenski experiments. AZPaul3 wants to be captain of the C- team.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2022 11:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by AZPaul3, posted 10-16-2022 12:38 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 413 of 2926 (899544)
10-16-2022 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Tanypteryx
10-15-2022 11:51 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx:
Kleinman's equal.
I was starting to think you had left the building as well. Have you figured out how to include the mathematics for mutations other than base substitutions? Do you want me to show you how to do this with a Markov process as well? It's easy peasy! I wouldn't put too much hope in that saving your universal common descent notion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-15-2022 11:51 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 11:54 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 414 of 2926 (899546)
10-16-2022 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 11:49 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
If only these Darwinists could figure out the physics and mathematics of Darwinian evolution.
And neither have you. Darwinian evolution is Natural Selection period. No mutations, no genetics. Trying to pass off your calculations from 2 simple bacterial experiments, that were conducted by researchers other than you, as the model for how modern life evolved is really bad science.
Too bad evolution is too confusing for you.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:49 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:50 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 415 of 2926 (899551)
10-16-2022 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 12:02 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
AZPaul3 wants to be captain of the C- team.
Just can't help but lie, can you. No wonder your peers rejected your work. You're an idiot.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:02 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:51 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 416 of 2926 (899553)
10-16-2022 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 11:56 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I'm saying that descent with modification (DNA evolutionary adaptation) requires huge populations to operate even when considering a single selection pressure environment.
So according to your mathematical model, how many generations would it take for a population of, say, 100,000 leopards to change from having spots to no spots ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:56 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:52 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 417 of 2926 (899554)
10-16-2022 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Tanypteryx
10-15-2022 11:51 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
A gross insult to Kleinman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-15-2022 11:51 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:54 AM Dredge has replied

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 418 of 2926 (899562)
10-16-2022 7:36 AM


Science is full of pseudoscience
I went to university. I studied engineering. I know exactly what science is and what pseudoscience is.
Very few people do cos very few people did a degree in practical science
These are the main pseudoscience fields we see today
- Theory of evolution (debunked countless times from many angles)
- Big bang theory (recently debunked again, this time by the new JW telescope)
- Climate change theory (debunked by their own false predictions of sea level rising)
- Covid vaccine theory (debunked by data and now Pfizer themselves)
- Transgender theory (debunked as a mental illness and by biology that says there are only 2 genders)
A disgrace to modern science

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 8:10 AM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 419 of 2926 (899563)
10-16-2022 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 12:17 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
If only these Darwinists could figure out the physics and mathematics of Darwinian evolution.
Tanypteryx:
And neither have you. Darwinian evolution is Natural Selection period. No mutations, no genetics. Trying to pass off your calculations from 2 simple bacterial experiments, that were conducted by researchers other than you, as the model for how modern life evolved is really bad science.

Too bad evolution is too confusing for you.

Of course, Darwin had no idea of DNA, but what do you think Darwin was talking about when he used the term "modified offspring"? And you are right, the Kishony and Lenski experiments are simple when it comes to demonstrating the concepts of Darwinian evolution and evolutionary biology. But these same principles apply to natural selection when describing the effect of herbicides on weeds, insecticides on insects, rodenticides on rodents, and anti-cancer treatments on cancers. Too bad they didn't teach you these mathematical facts of life in your survey of math courses. Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment:
Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast (with asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction) populations
quote:
Earlier laboratory evolution experiments have found that diploid populations of budding yeast tend to adapt more slowly than haploids, which could be a signature of the impact of Haldane’s sieve (e.g. if most beneficial mutations in haploids are loss-of-function mutations and most loss-of-function mutations are recessive) (Fisher et al., 2018; Marad et al., 2018; Zeyl et al., 2003; Gerstein et al., 2011). Consistent with this expectation, our diploid populations did increase in fitness more slowly than haploids over the course of the experiment, and the majority of mutations in our diploid populations fix as heterozygotes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 12:17 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 9:53 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 420 of 2926 (899564)
10-16-2022 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by AZPaul3
10-16-2022 12:38 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
AZPaul3 wants to be captain of the C- team.
AZPaul3:
Just can't help but lie, can you. No wonder your peers rejected your work. You're an idiot.

Everybody knows that AZPaul3 has no idea how to do the mathematics of biological evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by AZPaul3, posted 10-16-2022 12:38 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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