Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 51 (9179 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,176 Year: 5,433/9,624 Month: 458/323 Week: 98/204 Day: 14/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is ID falsifiable by any kind of experiment?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005


(4)
Message 136 of 507 (904289)
12-25-2022 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-25-2022 5:58 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
What are you even actually asking for? All I see is word salad and a half-formed argument from semantics that doesnt appear to have an actual point.
Evolution is the cornerstone of virtually all of modern biology and is confirmed by literally every observational test we have ever tried. It's one of the best-supported and most successful (in terms of making accurate, useful predictions) theoretical frameworks across all scientific disciplines.
If you have a competing theoretical model that provides even more accurate predictions relating to the diversity of species and their relationships than evolution, please do so - your Nobel Prize awaits.
Bear in mind that such a competing model would need to still need to explain the directly-observed change in allele frequency in populations over time - directly-observed evolution.
Evolution is not a dictionary and does not seek to define "intelligence" or "intention." Those are descriptive words we simply use - like "allele" or "frequency." They're relevant to evolution, but evolution doesn't define them.
As is the case with many English words, the terms "intelligence" and "intention" are fraught with multiple definitions based on context. But in the context of Intelligent Design, cdesign proponentists are typically using those terms to mean something at least vaguely reminiscent of human intelligence - that is, a specific entity that has goals, an internalized comprehension of what those goals are and how to achieve them, and agency to take actions to achieve those goals. Something like how I (as a discrete entity separate from you) am trying to describe how your words dont appear to make much sense or approach the correct way to challenge a scientific theory, and how I posses the ability to understand that I can communicate that to you through this message forum and have the agency to decide to do so.
The evolutionary model includes zero variables for such an intelligence - it's simply observed to be not a required factor, any more an such an intelligence is required to create snowflake structures. The mechanisms of the universe simply make such temporary organization from chaos inevitable.
We have examples of things that do require the specific intent of an aware actor - many, and requiring varying degrees of awareness. We know that an Apple iWatch does not spontaneously self-assemble - we know in precise detail the amount of engineering design that goes into the product and even the tools to create the tools to create the product, as well as the specific steps in assembly. Yet every instance of life of which we are aware has spontaneously self-assembled...with heritable variation. And self-assembly with heritable variation makes evolution an inevitable process, without the requirement for any design, intelligence, intent, agency, etc.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 5:58 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 10:30 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005


(4)
Message 138 of 507 (904291)
12-25-2022 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-25-2022 10:30 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
Oh boy.
quote:
I am asking all of you is to kick Evolution out in science, society and in all schools, right now, and replace Evolution with Biological Interrelation, BiTs, since BiTs is the only correct theory for biology. If you will dis-agree, you must answer all questions and all challenges that the new model will throw at you. DO IT and win. Don't do it, and Evolution lose.
Thats not how anything works. If this is how you think changes happen in science, then you need to head back to grade school.
Evolution is a well-established theory. it underpins all of biology. It's not getting thrown out - ever, just as we didnt throw out Newton just because Einstein was able to find a more accurate mode. Newtonian mechanics still work in the right reference frames, with high accuracy.
And Einstein didnt propose "throwing out" Newton, either. He published a model that specifically addressed some observational gaps where Newtonian predictions came up a little off. His model gave the same answer as Newton for the problems where newton was already correct, but also was able to accurately close those gaps. The Einsteinian model also made additional predictions that couldnt be tested at the time, but which have since been confirmed repeatedly and with high precision in ways Einstein could not have possibly imagined.
Note that the burden of proof was not on Newton or the physics establishment of the time. The burden of proof was on Einstein. And he had to do a lot more than write up a bunch of word salad and claim his way was better. He had to produce actual experimental predictions (in his case really just math added to existing observations).
You have the burden of proof here - not to prove evolution wrong (you cannot prove a negative without proving a mutually exclusive positive claim), but to show that you have a model that makes more accurate predictions than the current evolutionary model while also producing the same predictive results that we have confirmed with evolution.
You're making assertions of "the only correct theory." We already have theoretical models that are experimentally validated with high precision. We are not omniscient, and we already know that our existing models are not perfect - that's not the goal of science, since it is unattainable. Science seeks to be less wrong today than it was yesterday. We iteratively improve our models with ever-increasing accuracy, approaching ever more closely the real truth of the universe as best we can without omniscience.
quote:
I NEED THAT ANSWER badly. Do it, for if not, just surrender to the new theory.
I need not do your work for you. Evolution is a well-supported model with a proven track record of accurate predictions. Even if you were to prove evolution 100% wrong that would not mean your model is actually more accurate. Propose an actual model with predictive capability more accurate than any current model. Until you do so, you're shouting at the wind.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 10:30 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-26-2022 2:39 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005


(2)
Message 140 of 507 (904298)
12-26-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-26-2022 2:39 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
quote:
You claimed many things for Evolution
I made only a few claims - that evolution is extremely well supported and is the cornerstone of biology. I can defend that claim, but it feels rather like supporting that the sky is blue - we wouldnt be having this discussion, you wouldnt be trying to overturn the established theoretical model, if evolution were not...the established theoretical model.
I mentioned a few other basic elements. If you want to point to a specific claim I've made, I'll be happy to support it. But I'm not obligated to argue for claims I've not made just because you want me to. Do your own homework.
quote:
now let us see if your claims could answer these:

Once again, tell us here the differences between

spontaneously self-assembled X
non-spontaneously self-assembled X

Thats not how this works. Im not going to do your work for you. I can support specific positive claims I make. You need to support positive claims you make.
I have made no claims about these word-salad terms you appear to have made up yourself.
From what I can tell, you have no model. You make no predictions, you just want to try to gish gallop nonsense and claim that somehow you have disproved evolution.
So let's try something even more basic - ignore evolution. Pretend nobody has ever heard of it. What model do you propose, what elements of observed reality do you believe this model explains, and what observations can we make to increase or decrease the likelihood of your model accurately reflecting reality?

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-26-2022 2:39 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-26-2022 10:48 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 143 of 507 (904312)
12-27-2022 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-26-2022 10:48 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
I started writing a very long post, but in the end, it doesnt matter. You dont understand what an ad hominem is, you dont understand what the burden of proof is, and discussions about evolution are honestly a distraction and Im going to try to get you to focus.
quote:
quote:
So let's try something even more basic - ignore evolution. Pretend nobody has ever heard of it. What model do you propose, what elements of observed reality do you believe this model explains, and what observations can we make to increase or decrease the likelihood of your model accurately reflecting reality?

I have model. That should be your first post to me, instead of insulting me, asking me of why I dis-agree with Evolution, instead of insulting me on Message 136. Now, before I share to you my model, you have responsibility to answer your claims, since you did not only insult me, but you claimed many things.
Interestingly I dont need to do anything of the sort. Youre proposing a new model, or so you say. What is your model? This is the simplest of all possible questions given what you've said - I'm suggesting that we table the discussion of evolution and simply describe what your model is. If you dont have a model there's nothing to discuss.
quote:

Thus, for the THIRD TIMES,

Once again, tell us here the differences between

spontaneously self-assembled X
non-spontaneously self-assembled X

and their numerical limits, and let us apply that in Biology. I need experiment on where you derive your answer. Remember, Evolution is the cornerstone of science, or cornerstone of stupidity. Your answer will give us on which one is applied to Evolution.

I NEED THAT ANSWER badly. Do it, for if not, just surrender to the new theory.
So let me get this straight. I need to answer an arbitrary, apparently-meaningless question, and if I cannot do so, you win a Nobel Prize and overturn the theory of evolution? Without even proposing a model, without any experiments, no observations, no need for exhaustive research or peer-reviewed publications.
Again, this is not how anything works.
Even if you prove evolution to be 100% incorrect, your model would not be the new "winner." At best you'd have upended biology, and we'd have to answer "I dont know" to questions about the origin of species and how traits within populations change over time. You're pretending at a false dichotomy, where if you just get a random debater on the interwebs to be unable to answer your inscrutible question, somehow that means you're right, evolution is wrong, and I assume some sort of "designer" something or other.
That is not how science works. Its not even how debate works. You are proposing that we throw out evolution and replace it with "something else." The burden of proof lies with you. But before evidence we at least need to know what the heck it is that you actually propose.

Explain your model. Even just a high-level summary. Tell us what it is that you propose.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-26-2022 10:48 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-27-2022 1:43 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024