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Author Topic:   Is ID falsifiable by any kind of experiment?
Taq
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Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 122 of 507 (904201)
12-23-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-22-2022 11:53 PM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
I knew too that since cell and its members have many Repair mechanisms, then, they are the evidences that the cell is intellen, or intelligently designed, showing further that Evolution is really stupid.
False. Those are natural systems, not intelligent systems. DNA repair happens spontaneously, so they are natural by the criteria set out by science.
That is why, I think that Evolution is a religion.. since how could a 160 years old theory could never define intelligence or instinct... stupid Evolution, right?
Evolution already has defined what intelligence is. It is based on spontaneity. If something happens spontaneously then it doesn't require intelligence. DNA repair happens spontaneously, so it meets the criteria of being natural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-22-2022 11:53 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 4:47 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 123 of 507 (904202)
12-23-2022 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-23-2022 3:25 AM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
DEFEAT me first in science, then, I will agree with you.
I already did that in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367
I demonstrated that evolution is caused by natural spontaneous processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-23-2022 3:25 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 124 of 507 (904205)
12-23-2022 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-23-2022 3:21 AM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Evolution is religion since it has no answer for two opposing extremes opposites in Biology.
It does have that answer. It is based on spontaneity.
The FIRST breakthrough is the definition of intelligence, that all definitions, as written in all dictionaries, in all formats, in all languages, must be changed and replaced. The correct one is from my discovered definition.
That's religion. You now consider yourself a prophet whose words must be taken as being infallible and dogmatically believed.
There are many changes in biological world, and if you are asking the transitional change to become new species, then, Evolution must answer that first.
Already answered. The change is caused by spontaneous, and hence natural and non-intelligent, means.
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-23-2022 3:21 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 4:34 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 145 of 507 (904332)
12-27-2022 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-25-2022 4:29 PM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
One examples of Evolution's fantasy of explanation is Natural Selection. No one had ever tested and confirmed that nature could select for life.
Natural selection is tested and confirmed in this paper (which is one out of many):
Just a moment...
Yes, in all published dictionaries, publishers must invent definitions for every words so that they could publish the dictionaries, like the word intelligence or intentional, etc, by using Evolution as basis.
You are really, really confused. Dictionaries simply record how people are using words. Dictionaries do not tell people how to use words.
But when you use them in science, for example in the change in frequency alleles, (CIFA) you cannot simply use them.
There are no such things as frequency alleles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 4:29 PM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 146 of 507 (904333)
12-27-2022 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-25-2022 4:47 PM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Of course, I agreed that those REPAIR and DEFENSE mechanisms are natural systems, but their origins are not since how could a spontaneous X think of repairing and defensing itself without thinking mind?
It could do so through natural mutations and natural selection, none of which are intelligent. The pocket mice didn't think to themselves that they needed better camouflage, and then change their DNA so they could have darker fur. Rather, spontaneous and natural mutations produced a darker fur color, and it was naturally selected for in environments with dark rocks.
You need to provide test that any spontaneous X could do that without thinking mind.
I already provided it many, many times. Here it is again:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367
Again, anybody could claim and invent definitions of intelligence. That is why, in here, define intelligence based on spontaneity and why you invent that.
You ask science to come up with definitions for natural and intelligence. YOU ASKED FOR THIS!!!! Now you are just handwaving them away when they are presented.
Sorry, but this is not an honest way to approach the subject.

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 Message 129 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 4:47 PM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 147 of 507 (904334)
12-27-2022 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-25-2022 10:30 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
I am asking all of you is to kick Evolution out in science, society and in all schools, right now, and replace Evolution with Biological Interrelation, BiTs, since BiTs is the only correct theory for biology.
BiTs doesn't explain the evidence. Evolution does. Sorry, but we aren't going to replace a real and functioning theory with the mad ravings of someone who doesn't understand the very basics of biology. For example, you keep talking about frequency alleles which don't even exist.
REMEMBER that one of the immediate impacts of bad theory like Evolution, is the distortions of definitions of every words, as published in dictionaries. Remember that Evolution was started on 1860 AD, and after that, many publishers published dictionaries, and they will surely rely on science, for some of them or all of them are educated in Evolution. And since Evolution is the supposed to be the cornerstone therefore, correct, then, publishers will surely use Evolution as the basis, for if not, people like you will call those publishers stupid, or probably make a law so that their publishing companies will be bankrupted for not following Evolution.
What words have been distorted?
If I were you, you must call Nature and the Nobel Committee for that Prize to me. The new theory is called Biological Interrelation, BiTs, and I had submitted four articles for the falsifications of Evolution but they were all rejected, for professional envy.
BiTs was rejected because it can't explain the most basic observations in biology, such as the nested hierarchy.
And again, stupidity is Evolution cannot stop! They knew already that there are many examples in reality of intentional, intelligence, control, etc, why not check them all FIRST instead of claiming spontaneous?
We observe that the mechanisms that produce change in species are spontaneous. Stomping your feet and throwing a fit doesn't change this fact.

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 Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 10:30 PM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 148 of 507 (904335)
12-27-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-27-2022 1:43 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Once again, tell us here the differences between

spontaneously self-assembled X
non-spontaneously self-assembled X

and their numerical limits, and let us apply that in Biology.
That's exactly what I do in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-27-2022 1:43 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 3:05 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 156 of 507 (904421)
12-29-2022 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 2:50 AM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
As I had told here many times that anybody and everybody can invent definitions, but are those invented definitions correct and part of reality?
You are inventing words that have no definition, such as frequency allele and interrelated.
What is a frequency allele? Can you describe it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 2:50 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 157 of 507 (904422)
12-29-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 3:05 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Evolution is change, so, is the change guided or not?
No, it is not guided. This is discussed in my thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367
It is also discussed in two important papers from the 1940's and 50's that were the first to describe how evolutionary change is not guided:
The Luria and Delbruck paper on the fluctuation assay:
MUTATIONS OF BACTERIA FROM VIRUS SENSITIVITY TO VIRUS RESISTANCE | Genetics | Oxford Academic
The Lederberg's paper on the plate replica assay:
REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS - PMC
All of these experiments demonstrate that mutations aren't guided and they do so through scientific criteria and methods.
What you will be expecting if the change is not guided?
Exactly what we see in those three experiments above. For example, in the plate replica experiment we see that mutations that confer antibiotic resistance are not triggered by the presence of antibiotics. Instead, there are random mutations changing DNA without guidance, and some of those mutations just happen to produce antibiotic resistance.
Do you really believe and accept that if the change is not guided, chimps will become humans?
No one believes that. In fact, if chimps evolved into humans that would be evidence for guidance. Are you sure you know what the theory of evolution says?
But before you could answer yes or no, then what will be the criteria and dividing line between guided change and unguided change that we will be using and we will agreeing, as universal criteria, and set the universal numerical limit as criteria, with experiment?
Three experiments above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 3:05 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 8:54 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 158 of 507 (904427)
12-29-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by WookieeB
10-12-2022 12:26 AM


WookieeB writes:
But then you say it is "not directed by the experimenter". That seems contradictory to your premise. At the very least, whatever results come about, they are constrained by the experiment, which itself is designed. So in a macro sense, by design, yes the results are being directed.
How did the Lederberg's direct which mutations will occur in their experiment?
REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS - PMC
As to (1), actions of an intelligent agent would fall under "known mechanisms". And of course ID infers that life is a result of the activity of a mind.
How is this inference falsifiable?
But, if an experiment was designed with nothing at the beginning that was in a state of something akin to "the complexity of life", but then through undirected processes within that experiment results occur that are something akin to "the complexity of life", then yes, I would rule out a designer for those results.
So even if we witnessed all modern biodiversity evolving through natural processes from the very first life or a universal common ancestor, that wouldn't falsify ID because the first life had complexity?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 176 of 507 (904460)
12-30-2022 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 8:54 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Once again, I will repeat, your post was both a claim and a conclusion, but, how do you know that X is not guided or X is guided?
False. It is evidence. It includes OBSERVATIONS!!!! You continue to avoid the evidence, as expected.
I also explained how we know that mutations aren't guided. Here it is again:
"For example, in the plate replica experiment we see that mutations that confer antibiotic resistance are not triggered by the presence of antibiotics. Instead, there are random mutations changing DNA without guidance, and some of those mutations just happen to produce antibiotic resistance."
If mutations were guided then nearly all of the mutations in the experiment would confer antibiotic resistance once the bacteria are exposed to antibiotics, but that's not what happens. The mutations happen randomly with respect to fitness. In other words, mutations are blind to the needs of the organism. That is what makes them unguided.
You really do not understand how science works! YOU CANNOT CONCLUDE a one-sided view of reality!
That's the entire point of science. You follow the evidence to a conclusion, and throw away the conclusions that aren't supported by evidence. You are the one who doesn't understand how science works. You seem to think science is just believing whatever you want to. That's not how it works.
That is why we can distinguish black color to white color because we have limit or dividing line between the two.
What dividing line is that? I guess you never heard of shades of gray?
What we do have is a measurement of how many photons are reflected or emitted by an object, and the wavelength of those photons. The problem is that you can't seem to understand the differences between empirical measurements, opinions, and beliefs.
That is why, no matter how hard you explain to me Evolution, if Evolution cannot answer and invent or discover the criteria between guided X and unguided X in biological world, then Evolution is still a stupid theory!
Evolution has answered that question. I have been giving you those answers for multiple posts now.
Please, use you intellectual mind, you too studied in schools, right? Then, use your mind.
Follow your own advice.
For example, what is a freq allele or a frequency allele? Why can't you answer that question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 8:54 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 9:02 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 177 of 507 (904461)
12-30-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-30-2022 3:26 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Know it first before telling the public.
We do know it. It's been defined since the 1940's.
MUTATIONS OF BACTERIA FROM VIRUS SENSITIVITY TO VIRUS RESISTANCE | Genetics | Oxford Academic
REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS - PMC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 3:26 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 178 of 507 (904462)
12-30-2022 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-30-2022 6:21 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
I can share the new model, to those who are really serious in science.
You don't have a model, and you don't know what science is. Even worse, you don't understand what the theory of evolution says, what evidence it is based on, how evolution defines guidance (even though I've shown you multiple times), or how genetics works. You make up terms like frequency/freq allele, as if having made up words makes it scientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 6:21 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 194 of 507 (904626)
01-03-2023 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-30-2022 9:02 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Once again, we have Scientific Method.
We have the scientific method. You have yet to use it. We can add the scientific method to the long list of concepts you don't understand.
So, the correct question would be: how do you tell/know between guided X to unguided X?
If the mutations are guided, then the mutations would occur when the bacteria are exposed to antibiotics. In other words, guided mutations are those that are specifically produced in response to the specific needs of the organism.
For the Lederberg experiment, the control was indirect selection.
Here is a basic rundown of the method:
Isolation of Mutant Bacteria » Magazine Science
(look at the picture of the plates and stamp)
All of the bacteria on the plate with the original culture came from a single bacterium, meaning all changes are due to mutations that happened during the experiment. They stamped the bacteria on a plate with antibiotics and without antibiotics (the control). Since the bacteria came from the same place in the original culture they could sample the region on the control plate that was resistant on the antibiotic test plate. The control bacteria have never seen antibiotics.
You then replate the bacteria from the regions on the control plate that correspond to the resistant colonies on the test plate and repeat the process. If mutations are unguided then repeating this process with bacteria from the same region as the resistant colonies should produce a LOT more resistant colonies on the second go around. AND THEY DO!!! If the mutations were guided, then we would see the same results as the first go around, with just a handful of resistant colonies. They didn't see that.
This experiment demonstrated that mutations for antibiotic resistance are not created in response to antibiotic challenge. They are unguided.
Here is an excerpt from the Lederbergs' paper:
quote:
Replica plates were used in an approach to the problem of preexistence of adaptive mutants prior to their selection by specific environments. Replicas to agar containing bacteriophage or streptomycin showed that mutants of Escherichia coli resistant to these agents existed in clones on the initial plates of indifferent agar medium. In addition, concentration or enrichment for such mutants was accomplished by taking inocula from the bacterial films at sites demonstrated to contain mutants by replica plates. After several stages of enrichment, each type of resistant mutant was isolated in pure culture. The procedure at no time exposes the indirectly selected populations to the specific agent. These observations, therefore, are cited as confirmation of previous evidence for the participation of spontaneous mutation and populational selection in the heritable adaptation of bacteria to new environments.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...82/pdf/jbacter00003-0114.pdf
Confirmation of spontaneous mutations that are not the result of being exposed to the specific challenge. Those are unguided mutations.
You cannot have the correct conclusion if you do not have the correct experiment.
The experiment is correct.
I do use my educational and intellectual mind, thus, I cannot accept your explanations since they are not part
of science.
They have been a part of science for 70 years now. Your refusal to accept them does not make them go away.
do you have the dividing line or any lines between guided X to unguided X?
Yes. Those lines are found in the multiple experiments I have given you.
I am just making fun of supporters of Evolution since most of them are not good in details.
The problem is that you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know how biology works, how evolution works, nor how genetics works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 9:02 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 01-13-2023 7:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 196 of 507 (904665)
01-04-2023 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-30-2022 10:05 AM


MrIntelligentDesign writes:
AronRa is very afraid of me intellectually.
That made me giggle. Thanks for the laugh.
You don't know what the theory of evolution says, how guidance is defined in the theory, how genetics works, or even how the basics of biology works. You don't even understand what a mutation or an allele is. Funniest of all, you don't even know what a phylogeny is.
Why in the world would AronRa be afraid of such a tiny intellect? You don't even know enough to understand what his Phylogenetic Challenge is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 10:05 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 01-13-2023 7:44 PM Taq has replied

  
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