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Author Topic:   Phat Unplugged
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 196 of 352 (905710)
02-02-2023 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Phat
12-02-2022 1:54 PM


Re: Phats YouTube Beliefs-Secular Side.
Faith writes:
You dont want to face it and address it because you dont even understand what money is or what determines its value. Why not ask your financial advisor for his prediction where your investments will go?
I understand much better than you what money is and what determines its value. You have no clue and you continue to follow shysters and grifters.
I follow professional advice pretty closely and it has treated me pretty well through the years. As a matter of fact, my investments are up 4% since you posted this drivel. That in itself means nothing. I care where those investments will be in 10 years. So far listening to the experts has treated me better than listening to goldbugs, shysters, and get-rich-quick purveyors would have.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Phat, posted 12-02-2022 1:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 197 of 352 (905711)
02-02-2023 12:32 PM


Matt Dillahunty
Saw "Matt Dillahunty" come up in a few of your posts like Message 1581.
Just felt like giving my 2 cents on him as I've seen a few of his videos recently, too.
  • Seems incredibly intelligent and extremely familiar with all aspects of the theism/atheism debate.
  • His lectures (videos where he's just talking about a subject with no feedback) seem very calm and well put together
  • His temper with feedback is extremely short. He seems to get very angry very quickly with people who challenge him on anything. I usually don't find him to be wrong on his actual facts, but I do find him to be pretty wrong on his tactics and the way he deals with people who do not agree with him.
I much prefer someone like Forrest Valkai who seems even more knowledgeable, but also has the tact and grace of treating people with respect if they don't agree with him.

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Taq, posted 02-02-2023 6:52 PM Stile has replied
 Message 200 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 9:13 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 202 by dwise1, posted 02-09-2023 2:40 PM Stile has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 198 of 352 (905740)
02-02-2023 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Stile
02-02-2023 12:32 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty
Stile writes:
His temper with feedback is extremely short. He seems to get very angry very quickly with people who challenge him on anything. I usually don't find him to be wrong on his actual facts, but I do find him to be pretty wrong on his tactics and the way he deals with people who do not agree with him.
That's the one big criticism I have of Dillahunty. I can understand the frustration of hearing the same BS over and over, but that doesn't justify acting like a douchebag.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Stile, posted 02-02-2023 12:32 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Stile, posted 02-02-2023 8:36 PM Taq has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 199 of 352 (905744)
02-02-2023 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Taq
02-02-2023 6:52 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty
Taq writes:
I can understand the frustration of hearing the same BS over and over, but that doesn't justify acting like a douchebag.
Yeah, that excuse doesn't hold that much water for me, either.
When giving a one-way talk/lecture though he's almost a totally different fellow. During those times he seems incredibly calm and caring and 'just trying to help.'
One of the best speakers I've ever heard.
The difference is quite jarring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Taq, posted 02-02-2023 6:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 200 of 352 (905746)
02-02-2023 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Stile
02-02-2023 12:32 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty
I never paid much attention to Matt Dillahunty.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Stile, posted 02-02-2023 12:32 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2023 9:50 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 201 of 352 (905748)
02-02-2023 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by nwr
02-02-2023 9:13 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty
I have never listened to him ever.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 9:13 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5946
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 202 of 352 (906287)
02-09-2023 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Stile
02-02-2023 12:32 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty
His temper with feedback is extremely short. He seems to get very angry very quickly with people who challenge him on anything. I usually don't find him to be wrong on his actual facts, but I do find him to be pretty wrong on his tactics and the way he deals with people who do not agree with him.
I've watched several of his videos and that is not what I have seen. Rather, he gets angry with people who refuse to discuss but instead try to derail any hope of a discussion.
We've seen that too often. In the recent past every time a Trump apologist would be interviewed (eg, Kelly Ann Conway on Bill Maher, Ben Shapiro at any time), her "reply" to a simple question would be a fire-hose torrent of rapid-fire nonsense that had nothing whatsoever to do with either the question or with the topic being discussed. And while that is going on, the host is left with trying to stop the torrent and get an actual answer, but all in vain. Once that fire hose is opened, nothing can stop it and all hopes of any kind of discussion is washed away.
I see so many of callers to Matt Dillahunty on Atheist Experience pulling that same kind of crap as they call in with their bald assertion followed by a steady stream of preaching during which they completely ignore Matt's attempts to ask the necessary simple questions.
Unlike Bill Maher et alia, Matt is able to put the caller on mute as he tries to get through to the guy. And before he has to do that, Matt repeatedly warns the caller to please stop voluntarily before he has to force it by putting him on mute. In my experience, Matt always gives fair warning. And he always puts them on mute in order to get a word/question in in edgewise, never just because they disagree with him.
And when Matt has to hang up on a caller, I've always only seen it to be because of the caller's disruptive behavior and never only because the caller disagreed with him.
You've heard of "And don't let the bastards grind you down!" (adopted by US Army General "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell as his motto during WWII). Matt has been at this for years, during which time "the bastards" have ground down his patience, much as creationists have ground down mine over the past four decades. As a result, he knows that he has to keep them on a tighter leash, especially if he doesn't want everybody's time (and the show's air time) to be wasted. And he will be less forgiving with them. Though he does always explain why he hanged up and what was wrong with the caller's position and/or arguments.
It could well be that Matt might be attracting those miscreants with his "Hang-up" reputation. In order to feed their hunger for fake stories of persecution, they call his show and misbehave deliberately in order to get him to hang up on them so that they can then go back to their churches to use this "treatment" as further evidence of their being "persecuted".
Consider this article reposted from Quora:
quote:
Why do people get angry when I try to share the word of God with them? I only do it because I care about them deeply and don't want them to end up in hell. I feel like some people avoid me because of this. Is there any way to get through to them?
by Doug Robertson, studied at University of Maine
Updated Dec 11 2018
The entire process is not what you think it is.
It is specifically designed to be uncomfortable for the other person because it isn't about converting them to your religion. It is about manipulating you so you can't leave yours.
If this tactic was about converting people it would be considered a horrible failure. It recruits almost no one who isn't already willing to join. Bake sales are more effective recruiting tools.
On the other hand, it is extremely effective at creating a deep tribal feeling among its own members.
The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the "others". These uncomfortable feelings go away when they come back to their congregation, the "Tribe".
If you take a good look at the process it becomes fairly clear. In most cases, the religious person starts out from their own group, who is encouraging and supportive. They are then sent out into the harsh world where people repeatedly reject them. Mainly because they are trained to be so annoying.
These brave witnesses then return from the cruel world to their congregation where they are treated like returning heroes. They are now safe. They bond as they share their experiences of reaching out to the godless people to bring them the truth. They share the otherness they experience.
Once again they will learn that the only place they are accepted is with the people who think as they do. It isn't safe to leave the group. The world is your enemy, but we love you.
This is a pain reward cycle that is a common brainwashing technique. The participants become more and more reliant on the "Tribe" because they know that "others" reject them.
Mix in some ritualized chanting, possibly a bit of monotonous repetition of instructions, add a dash of fear of judgment by an unseen, but all-powerful entity who loves you if you do as you are told and you get a pretty powerful mix.
Sorry, I have absolutely no wish to participate in someone's brainwashing ritual.
Another version of that refers directly to creationists and how talking with them is like playing chess with a pigeon:
quote:
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."
Forrest Valkai is still young and hasn't been ground down to the point of no longer being able to enjoy a skirmish. It's the difference between the FNG and the old veteran (eg, SFC Hulka, Stripes (1981): "I'm getting too old for this shit!").
Besides Matt's reputation serving as a lightning rod attracting the worst kinds of caller, the editorial choice of which shows to release to video might filter out most of the calls wasted on bad callers while releasing ones that enhance Matt's reputation. Just mentioning a possible source of bias.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Stile, posted 02-02-2023 12:32 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 02-11-2023 6:22 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 204 by Stile, posted 02-13-2023 10:18 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 352 (906422)
02-11-2023 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by dwise1
02-09-2023 2:40 PM


The Tribe & The Others
dwise1 writes:
Consider this article reposted from Quora:
Q: Why do people get angry when I try to share the word of God with them? I only do it because I care about them deeply and don't want them to end up in hell. I feel like some people avoid me because of this. Is there any way to get through to them?
~ Doug Robertson

A: The entire process is not what you think it is.

It is specifically designed to be uncomfortable for the other person because it isn't about converting them to your religion. It is about manipulating you so you can't leave yours.

If this tactic was about converting people it would be considered a horrible failure. It recruits almost no one who isn't already willing to join. Bake sales are more effective recruiting tools.

On the other hand, it is extremely effective at creating a deep tribal feeling among its own members.

The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the "others". These uncomfortable feelings go away when they come back to their congregation, the "Tribe".

If you take a good look at the process it becomes fairly clear. In most cases, the religious person starts out from their own group, who is encouraging and supportive. They are then sent out into the harsh world where people repeatedly reject them. Mainly because they are trained to be so annoying.

These brave witnesses then return from the cruel world to their congregation where they are treated like returning heroes. They are now safe. They bond as they share their experiences of reaching out to the godless people to bring them the truth. They share the otherness they experience.

Once again they will learn that the only place they are accepted is with the people who think as they do. It isn't safe to leave the group. The world is your enemy, but we love you.

This is a pain reward cycle that is a common brainwashing technique. The participants become more and more reliant on the "Tribe" because they know that "others" reject them.

Mix in some ritualized chanting, possibly a bit of monotonous repetition of instructions, add a dash of fear of judgment by an unseen, but all-powerful entity who loves you if you do as you are told and you get a pretty powerful mix.
The whole concept of Tribe vs Other is not limited to religion. I see it in political discussions as well. The Tribe tells me how evil and unloving I am and then pats each other on the back for being decent people.One could say then that "the other" serves a useful purpose as it validates the Tribe. I will say, David, that you do not dog pile as much as many other Tribal Progressives tend to do. (Likely because I am not a Biblical Creationist! )
Getting back to Matt Dillahunty:
dwise1 writes:
I've watched several of his videos and that is not what I have seen. Rather, he gets angry with people who refuse to discuss but instead try to derail any hope of a discussion.
Not so much with you, but the reason I often refuse to discuss much with jar or ringo is because they try and frame the discussion, attempting to demolish my frame in the process! That is perhaps why we often get nowhere.
Nonetheless, I consider EvC as a bit of a Tribe, even though I am one of the outliers around here. Perhaps I have inherited Faith's martyr complex.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by dwise1, posted 02-09-2023 2:40 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 204 of 352 (906518)
02-13-2023 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by dwise1
02-09-2023 2:40 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty
dwise1 writes:
Besides Matt's reputation serving as a lightning rod attracting the worst kinds of caller, the editorial choice of which shows to release to video might filter out most of the calls wasted on bad callers while releasing ones that enhance Matt's reputation. Just mentioning a possible source of bias.
Yes - I certainly do understand Matt's reputation. I even respect it.
It's just too much for myself. Although, I will admit that sometimes such people like Matt are better qualified in certain situations where people like myself would be more likely to be "abused/pushed-over."
Forrest Valkai is still young and hasn't been ground down to the point of no longer being able to enjoy a skirmish.
Perhaps - yes.
Or, perhaps, Forrest is different from Matt and will create his own niche and not become so jaded.
Only time will tell on that one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by dwise1, posted 02-09-2023 2:40 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 205 of 352 (906573)
02-13-2023 2:43 PM


But Think Of The Children.
Phat, your republicans are at it again. Gotta make life hurt for more people cuz freedom. Helps when your business partners a filling your campaign coffers.
This time it is the freedom of children to work in construction and other adult jobs for less $$$ than adults.
Give the kids a radial arm saw and a nail gun, it’ll be loads of fun!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 02-13-2023 3:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 02-13-2023 3:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 02-13-2023 3:21 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 206 of 352 (906574)
02-13-2023 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by AZPaul3
02-13-2023 2:43 PM


Re: But Think Of The Children.
What is really telling is that there is a nearly unlimited supply of workers who are adults and would welcome all those jobs that the Republicans are actively preventing them from applying.
Instead they are allocating tax money to keep such workers from crossing the borders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2023 2:43 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 352 (906575)
02-13-2023 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by AZPaul3
02-13-2023 2:43 PM


Re: But Think Of The Children.
At the grocery store, younger people (15-18) have traditionally been courtesy clerks/baggers. They receive less of a wage than the all purpose clerks such as myself, who are more involved with tougher labor, bookkeeping, and customer service at a more mature and diplomatic level. These days, more adults are applying for thos jobs as well, but the job standards are less demanding.
You cant expect us to pay everyone the same unless, by necessity, we cut the top wages down. And many of the people who do the more demanding jobs have families with kids.
Granted, as all purpose clerks we can be made to push carts in the snow when the young people dont come to work in a blizzard, for example. And occasionally, the CC's (Courtesy Clerks) will learn to check and do the more demanding jobs as their maturity and proven responsibility increases. (In which case they are temporarily paid the higher wage) Let me ask you something. Do you pay the neighbor kid who lives at home and mows your lawn the same aas you would pay adult laborers to landscape your property? (as an example)
The equal pay argument should be the same for men and women, and the union enforces this. Classifications exist for a basic reason, however. You dont simply pay the teenager who lives on his/her cellphone or the disabled worker who is limited in what they can actually do the same wage as a fully embodied (and responsible) worker.
The bottom line is that pay is commensurate with ability. Ability needs to be proven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2023 2:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 02-13-2023 3:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2023 3:25 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 208 of 352 (906577)
02-13-2023 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
02-13-2023 3:03 PM


Re: But Think Of The Children.
Phat writes:
The bottom line is that pay is commensurate with ability. Ability needs to be proven.
Agreed. So a younger. stronger, more energetic worker should be paid more that the older worker relying on seniority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 02-13-2023 3:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-13-2023 3:27 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 209 of 352 (906578)
02-13-2023 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by AZPaul3
02-13-2023 2:43 PM


Re: But Think Of The Children.
From your link:
Pharyngula:
Even in the benighted 1970s we weren’t allowed to work construction or in meatpacking plants (although the bit about moving around 50 pound loads did trigger a twinge — repetitive heavy lifting can do a surprising amount of damage to growing bodies). Just think, I could have had my horizons broadened with hard labor pushing around dead pigs on meathooks! I was going to comment on the riches I might have received if I’d accidentally sawed off a limb, but the politicians are thinking ahead and protecting businesses from liability already.
Jesus fuck, but capitalism is evil.

Capitalism sure is evil at times. Rather than pay an American (or even a Mexican guest worker) a living wage (in US terms) is too much for them, so they utilize and exploit Indonesia or Thailand. Im sure that the reparations crowd will someday be demanding that the Capitalist West reimburse the Indonesians for their slave wages!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2023 2:43 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 210 of 352 (906580)
02-13-2023 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
02-13-2023 3:03 PM


Re: But Think Of The Children.
Phat? Does your novice clerk position kill kids?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 02-13-2023 3:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 02-13-2023 3:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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