Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9175 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,654 Year: 4,911/9,624 Month: 259/427 Week: 5/64 Day: 1/2 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Conversations with God
ringo
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 526 of 530 (905554)
01-30-2023 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Phat
01-29-2023 3:33 PM


Re: Conersations With Ted (Cruz)
Phat writes:
I just noticed this reply...
They are flagged, you know. that's how I notice yours.
Phat writes:
As expected, you said just what I thought you would say.
If you always know what I'm going to say, why don't you pre-emptively reply to what I say? Why do you just repeat the same ol same old as if i hadn't said anything at all?
Phat writes:
The populists, who love Trump, will protest the unfairness of such an arraignment and will elect a new president Fuhrer and ruin the party for everyone.
But we know that isn't true. Your beloved Fuhrer was rejected in 2020.
Phat writes:
You claim I am one of them, but I don't want that!
And yet you agree with Trump on everything. Why don't you ever respond to that?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Phat, posted 01-29-2023 3:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 527 of 530 (905856)
02-04-2023 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by ringo
01-30-2023 12:03 PM


I wish I'd have thought of that
A good man would teach his family to feed the guys at the park.
One of my Christian friends who is quite a biblical literate has done just that. He once took his entire family(4 kids) to the park and had a barbecue for the homeless in that park. Several dozen people got fed. He bought all of the food too, and he is poor.
Sometimes you say just the right things. Now that's throwing water and NOT gasoline.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by ringo, posted 01-30-2023 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 12:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 528 of 530 (905863)
02-04-2023 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
02-04-2023 12:34 PM


Re: I wish I'd have thought of that
Phat writes:
I wish I'd have thought of that
So do I.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 02-04-2023 12:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 529 of 530 (905922)
02-05-2023 11:46 AM


Topic Synopsis
For those of you who pray and who believe that you are having a conversation with God
(an entity that you believe is living and aware and that is outside of your conscience, strictly speaking)
perhaps you could share some of the dynamics of the prayers, mantras, and conversations. I realize that for some of us this is an important and personal thing, so let's keep the jokes limited to ourselves.
  • What do you ask and/or talk about?
  • Do you hear answers or feel inner confirmation in any way?
  • Does the action of communication with God change you in any way?
ringo writes:
Doesn't it seem that most of those who do try to "prove God" - e.g. YECs (fundies in general) - are lacking in "inner joy"? Don't they come off as angry, arrogant, and sour in life?

Maybe "conversations with God" should emphasize listening rather than talking. Maybe then they'd hear Him telling them to smarten up.
I think Ringo has a point in that sometimes it's better to listen. Meditation can help. For many Christians, the mind of God can't be known except through scripture...at least not the God we (think) we understand. Any other comments?
AZPaul writes:
One of my uncles was a Methodist minister and another was a fundamentalist preacher. Used to have some great discussions. But the one thing they both agreed on was that this laundry list nature of wants in prayer (Joan Baez syndrome) was near blasphemy.
The only reason for prayer, they agreed, is to praise and thank, to show submission, which should be done several times each day. My Methodist uncle insisted on dedicated prayer with time to give sufficient praise and adoration. My fundamentalist uncle insisted that prayer could be as simple as a heartfelt "Thank you" sent gods way. Of course, I insisted that prayer of any kind was useless since there was nothing at the other end of the line to care about.

They both forgave my atheism though Uncle Mitch, the fundamentalist, just knew I was in the grasp of the devil and would pray to god to save my soul. He was not amused when I thanked him for adding me to his prayer laundry list.
Oswald Chambers writes:
To say that prayer changes things is not as close to the truth as saying, Prayer changes me and then I change things. God has established things so that prayer, on the basis of redemption, changes the way a person looks at things. Prayer is not a matter of changing things externally, but one of working miracles in a person’s inner nature.
Theodoric did not like that I was quoting "some preacher".
ringo writes:
Even Noah had to build his own ark.
At least Ken Ham got to use the money from donors to pay people to build his!
AZ Paul3 writes:
On this basis prayer sounds like meditation with some unnecessary theistic stuff thrown on top.
Why do you always emphasize that "theistic stuff is unnecessary"?
jar and ringo agree that the messenger should be thrown away, but they have not yet convinced me.
Theo, replying to Rahvins post writes:
Evidence.
Must we rehash this in every topic?
Yes. Next question?
Phat writes:
when it comes to God, absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence. Far too many people have subjective evidence.
Granted, Christianity has many con men and many hyper-emotional followers.
There are far too many sane people that believe for me to dismiss it all as wishful thinking...in fact, the Bible says that you (and the likes of you) already have evidence that you choose to ignore and rationalize away.
AZPaul3 writes:
The problem with this piece of "evidence" is that literally millions of people have "subjective evidence" of every competing religion on the planet. In the past there was plenty of this personal emotional "subjective evidence" for religions that no longer exist. This type of evidence is not evidence at all and that is not a rationalization but a fact. (...)Other than the emotionally subjective evidence in which you are so enamored above the only other evidence you can point to is your bible.

Yet we know as real hard fact, not rationalization, that the majority of the books of the OT began life as oral tales passed down the generations with embellishments until they were finally written down about 3500 years ago. Further that these same books, and later ones, went through major re-writes and amendments after the release from Babylon when the priests were desperate to win back the hearts, minds, and purses of the people.

We know that the books of the NT were written many decades after the period of the events, not by their purported authors, but by anonymous others who never witnessed said events. And that one misogynistic self-appointed "disciple" a century afterward reformed the progenitor of your religion in his own image around the embellished myths popular in his time.

We know for fact, not rationalization, that the divinity of your savior was not from the books but from a vote of gathered clerics, and a close one at that, more than three centuries on.

We know that your canon was formed by political accommodation excising all books that did not meet the gathered tribal patriarchs' self-serving views, after expelling those who lost on the divinity question, especially anything showing equality and power of women and anything that challenged a formal male-dominated hierarchy for the church.

Under these circumstances, your bible, as a piece of evidence, is suspect at best and constitutes no evidence at all.

Finally, we have from history and observation, seen the formation and demise of numerous religions. We know, as fact not as rationalization, how and why religions form and why and how their followers come to faith in their beliefs. And none of it has to do with any power of whatever deity is being proposed but is the product of social and peer pressures and youthful acculturation.

These are the hard facts we know. They rationalize nothing and only ignore the confusion of articles of faith for facts.

The philosophical difference here, phat, is that religionists accept non-fact and emotional faith as proofs of their position ignoring or rationalizing away all contrary facts whereas, in western empiricism, to ignore the facts and hold steadfast to positions contrary to the facts is not just illogical but is intellectually dishonest. (...)Intellect is a gift of evolution and we didn't have to seek or ask for it. It is available to all people to varying degrees and we can use it or neglect it as we desire.

Our intellect is most powerful in curiosity, in questioning and doubting our own perceptions and the insistent perceptions of others, and in testing, observing, and modeling the works of the world around us.

One of the things our intellect has shown us is that we do not have to rely on magic or faith to coax the sun to rise in the morning since we know precisely why, when and how the clockwork of the heavens works. We know with certainty where the sun will break over our horizon, what path for what duration it will transit our skies, and where and when it will transect the horizon again. We do not have to hope for this. We know it will happen.

Another thing our intellect has shown us is that the proposition that we are bad people, unworthy of this life...sinners whose only sins are being born and breathing, is reprehensible to reality, bankrupt of all humanity, and is a evil and violent philosophy worthy of nothing but rejection.

Our intellect has shown us that we are the masters of our own destinies. That we rule our own minds and our own actions. That we need not ask for purpose or salvation or revelation from anything other than ourselves, our society, and our species.
ringo writes:
I think of "insanity" as the inability to function in society. In a society where everybody wears their pajamas on the street and yells at parking meters, the man in the gray flannel suit is insane.
If there are believers who are sane it's only because our society is flexible enough to accommodate them.
I can imagine God stepping out of the shadows and, in the voice of every mafia movie ever, saying to AZ and ringo:
Are you talking to me? Of course as they will argue, it is all in my head! Need I remind participants that the topic is Conversations With God?
Thus, as we converse with each other, be mindful of His possible presence!
ringo writes:
The problem is that its believers who don't respect other believers. Unbelievers tend to treat all beliefs equally. Believers often don't.
Phat writes:
One of the most important lessons that any human can learn is humility and obedience...not to a human con man but to a Creator Who knows what is the better choice.

Everyone always points to how religion has been used to manipulate...an observation that confirms the base nature of humanity, by the way. Getting rid of religion won't stop human greed and lust for power.
ringo writes:
If you're humble, how do you know who to obey?
jar writes:
How do you know that the person you are obeying really is not a human con man but a Creator Who knows what is the better choice?
Phat writes:
Have you ever really prayed...apart from reciting some pre-written prayer?
jar writes:
Constantly. I ask often "What should I do?"
But then I test the answer using logic, reason, and reality.
How do you know that the person you are obeying really is not a human con man but a Creator Who knows what is the better choice?
Pause...
AZPaul3 writes:
One can be forced into obedience by a stick or one can comply in respect. Your god's sticks are neither long enough nor strong enough to reach me and the vile nature and evil attributes ascribed to your god in his (supposedly) own books defy any level of respect from a decent man.

So, no. No obedience.

And the one thing I do not need to be humble about is the fact that me ... mankind ... my brain is considerably more powerful than your god's nostrils; that I can, as I have done so many times before, consign any of the gods to oblivion with just a thought. Besides, my dick is way bigger than his.
Phat writes:
Im all for questioning and testing. I don't check my brain at any door, but I also don't throw away gods and scriptures and bow at the altar of logic, reason, and reality. (Unless that logic, reason, and reality emanate from Him.) How do I know it's Him? Good question, grasshopper!
ringo writes:
Jesus claimed to be the son of God - not very humble. He went to the cross reluctantly - not very obedient.
If Jesus was God, it would be quite humbling to kill His own human persona. Just sayin.
ringo writes:
Believers often mistake "strong belief" for not bothering to think it through. They demonstrate "strong belief" by:

1. Saying something off the top of their head.
2. Calling people "irrational" when they're proven wrong.
3. Screaming insults.
4. Running away.
Stile writes:
I see ringo as someone who follows the evidence for identifying reality.
And if that evidence leads to God - then ringo will accept God as being real.
And if that evidence does not lead to God - then ringo will not accept God as being real.
This will always lead ringo to being able to identify reality correctly - he cannot possibly be wrong (in the end.)
ALL of us could be wrong in the end. We may be true to ourselves...and fail.
We may be true to the God we believe in. And fail.
Failure is always an option for humanity.



The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 530 of 530 (907038)
02-18-2023 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-31-2006 12:51 PM


Apotheosis
Having experienced apotheosis, I can state that it is the only way to know you have found something new.
My seeking found what people call God.
That experience is personal and I have absolutely no way to prove this.
The God I found was natural and where our spiritual side might visit.
I do not posit an entity that is immortal. Just see it as an extension of the substance or material dualism thinking that most of us have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-31-2006 12:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024