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Author Topic:   what is a scientific theory of creation
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 36 of 58 (9077)
04-28-2002 3:04 PM


I have recently started a new topic, "What if creationism did get into the science class", which can be found at:
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=21&t=3&p=2
A most fundimental part of the above topic, is the matter of this topic.
So I repeat the topic question:
"What is a scientific theory of creation"
If creationism / "creation science" is to be taught in the classroom, a curriculum of "creation science" must exist.
So, What is the scientific theory of creation? If there is none, then there is nothing to be taught about creationism, in the science classroom (other than perhaps a discussion of "bad science").
A coherent program of "creation science" is required. Not bits and pieces of ideas of questionable quality.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 38 of 58 (9142)
04-30-2002 11:28 AM


Just presenting some information and sources ---
From http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/science.htm :
WHAT IS THE "SCIENTIFIC THEORY OF CREATION"? by Lenny Flank (c) 1996
The creationists are insistent that their religious outlook, based upon a literal reading of the Biblical account in Genesis, is really "science", and is not merely a rehash of their fundamentalist religious beliefs. However, when pressed to tell us exactly what their scientific theory is, they usually either do not respond at all, or else they respond with a long list of inaccurate criticisms of evolutionary theory (which of course do nothing at all to demonstrate the scientific validity of the creationist outlook).
However, the creationists have published what they refer to as their "scientific model" of creation, and it is worth taking a look at (for a good laugh if for nothing else). Looking at what they present as their "scientific model", it is no wonder that the creationist prefer to depend on their tried-and-untrue criticisms of evolutionary theory, since their own "scientific model" is so patently silly.
So here is the "scientific model of creation" as set out by the Institute for Creation Research, along with my own notes and comments.
The ICR begins by pointing out:
"Creationism can be studied and taught in any of three basic forms, as follows:
(1) 'Scientific creationism' (no reliance on Biblical revelation, utilizing only scientific data to support and expound the creation model).
(2) 'Biblical creationism' (no reliance on scientific data, using only the Bible to expound and defend the creation model).
(3) 'Scientific Biblical creationism' )full reliance on Biblical revelation but also using scientific data to support and develop the creation model)." (All quotes are from ICR Impact No, 85, "The Tenets of Creationism", Henry Morris, July 1980) ( http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-085.htm )
The second and third of these three "forms", of course, rely explicitly on religious doctrines (as indicated by the Book of Genesis and the rest of the Christian Bible), and are, therefore, illegal to teach in public schools in the United States (under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment). The first "form", presumably, is the one that creation "scientists" are investigating and defending, and is also presumably the one that the creationists would like to have taught in science classrooms as an "alternative" to the scientific model of evolution.
(See source for continuation) - Moose
-----
Also -
A Canadian(?) perspective:
Religion, Science, and Law: Defining the Science in Scientific Creationism by Dov Wisbrod
http://www.catalaw.com/dov/docs/dw-scicr.htm
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 40 of 58 (9242)
05-05-2002 1:46 PM


Just to state (or more likely restate) a basic point.
The phrase "creation science" implies that there must be a creator. Now this creator may be God, or may be some other influence outside of any current knowledge of science.
For "creation science" to gain any legitimacy as being truely in the realm of science, there must be scientific evidence of the creator.
So, for any variety of creation to be taught as science (re: the science in the classroom topic), scientific evidence of the creator must be present.
So, once again, where is the scientific theory of creation?
Where is the scientific evidence of there being a creator?
"Creation science" can not be divorced from the concept of there being a creator.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 05-05-2002]

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 41 of 58 (9316)
05-07-2002 12:43 PM


I bring this over from message 9 of the topic "Just A Thought".
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=18&t=4&m=9#9
It is a RedVento response to a TrueCreation message:
-----
quote:
"--I didn't say that can't, only they have a hard time. "
--I must then emphasize, I have no more of a hard time than conventional scientists.
I would argue that you have a harder time. Conventional scientists have how many years of research backing up their claims of an old earth and evolution? You need to come up with theories that can be demonstrated and repeated that will refute conventional thinking, you have an uphill battle for sure.
quote:
I don't need to. Creationism is based on the bible no?"
--Not based on, included.
Where did the idea for creationism come from then if not the old testament? Was the idea plucked out of the air and then ancient texts looked for to back up said idea? Can you give me links to non christian sites that refrence other ancient texts besides the bible? Can you give me any references that show how creationism is really a search for the origins of man and the earth with no references to any holy book? Think about it, you are trying to prove the existance of a world flood, that is only referenced(if I am wrong please let me know) in the BIBLE. You are trying to prove the BIBLE right.
quote:
"If that is the case then ALL research is referenced to it."
--No, sorry.
Is based upon a better choice of words? But make no mistake, the bible is a major influence in creationism. If the bible said God made us from monkeys would there be Creationism?
quote:
"The bible says the earth is young and creationists are trying to show that to be true."
--Some yes, in this case you would be right, however, it is only their conclusions upon data which this would be a factor. Conclusions which I may differ with many creationists.
Ok, if you fail to find sufficient evidence that points to a world wide flood, or you are shown flaws in your conclusions at what point do you say "I am barking up the wrong tree, the Earth is Old" or "We can't find evidence of 400 year old men, maybe we did evolve." At what point do you, personally, decide to do that? You say your conclusions are different than many creationists, which conclusions are they? Do they concern young earth theory or conclusions about human origins?
quote:
"If there was no bible, there would be no creation science."
--There would have been no idea of it in the first place. However as I have explained, the term 'creation science' is misleading in its name.
As a non-creationist, please tell me what creation science is really about then. I would honestly like to understand. As far as I know creation science refers to the science of showing that Darwin was wrong, the earth is young and the bible is literal.
-----
Everything between the "-----" dividers is from TrueCreation or RedVento.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 42 of 58 (9337)
05-07-2002 9:05 PM


More from Suttkus, at the Yahooland site:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionversuscreationism/message/13285
The lead in statement:
A course in critical thinking would be the best, if all sides
were presented objectively. I heard somewhere that was done, in
Florida. The Creationists later screamed for its removal, as they
were so badly trounced.
The Suttkus response:
There was one incident in Florida you may be referring to...
Some creationists took a gifted ed class and showed them a series of
pro-creationism film strips and then asked them a series of questions
about the "problems" in evolution. The class, by and large, ripped
the test apart. The creationists, a bit confused, responded by
sending the class in to watch the films again (since obviously the
class hadn't been paying attention the first time). The clas came
out with the same opinion they had the first time, the films were
badly done and illogical. The creationists wanted to send the kids
in to see the strips again, but since it was a voluntary
participation thing, the kids went home.
If I was a creationist, I'd be fighting like crazy to keep
creationism out of science classes. Fear of violating the
establishment clause is all that keeps educated science teachers from
specifically trashing creationism for all it's worth as a perfect
example of bad science.
-----
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Philip, posted 05-07-2002 11:44 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 44 of 58 (9525)
05-11-2002 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Philip
05-07-2002 11:44 PM


First of all, I wish to make clear, that Philip's quotations attributed to me are from three different postings by me. The first cited quotes are original statements on my part.
The second quote (of which Philip reproduced the link) is something from another topic, that I thought belonged in this topic. RedVento is the author, although I do strongly agree with what he said.
The final quotes are material that I brought in from the Yahoo site. Those would perhaps have been better placed in the "What if creationism got into the science class" topic, but that topic and this topic are most closely related.
Philip, I must emphasise that I am not out on an attempt to use science to either prove or disprove God's existance. I believe that science and God are in two seperate realms, that can co-exist. The conflict is when the creationist side of the debate tries to inject considerations of God into the realm of science.
From: http://www.catalaw.com/dov/docs/dw-scicr.htm
From the section McLean v. Arkansas Bd. of Ed.:
quote:
The plaintiffs in McLean argued that "Act 590's two-model approach was a deceptive attempt to introduce religious beliefs into public schools.... Mandatory inclusion of creation-science... would force what they believed to be a false choice between science and religion, and ultimately between science and God." The plaintiffs included leaders of non-fundamentalist churches, parents of Arkansas school children, and a teacher of high school biology. Several Jewish groups, and organizations involved in education and religion, also joined the challenge. The defence, relying heavily on the support provided by the declaration of purpose in Section 6 of the Act, argued that academic freedom and scientific inquiry were furthered by the provision of alternatives to students, and that both would be hindered by the censorship of "creation-science."
(my "bolds")
Also to Phillip: I am uncertain of your precise position in this debate. Apparently you are NOT a fundimentalist "Young Earth/Age Creationist" (YEC / YAC). You are of an Intelligent Design (ID) persuasion.
The YEC/YAC position is seriously in conflict with the worldly scientific observations. One is within ones rights to believe that the worldly observations are some sort of an illusion (and maybe it is), but the science involved is extremely strong.
Now for the ID position. As I understand it, ID is compatible with the concept of an old Earth. The fossil record is accepted as a real and valid history of what happened. The question is, what was the process that led to that history?
As I see ID, there is two basic positions (plus hybrids):
1) A sequence of many special creations down through time, which superficially mimics the more conventional evolutionary thought. This variation is something I picked up from the book "Finding Darwin's God", by Kenneth Miller (which I am currently reading). Miller discusses the scientific problems with that, and I will perhaps get into Miller's thought further, later.
2) The conventional evolutionary thought, with God's guidance involved. This could be deemed to be fully compatible with mainstream scientific thought. God's possible input is outside of scientific study (or is it?, that is the essence of this topic).
From the message to which this is a response:
quote:
minnemooseus - So, for any variety of creation to be taught as science (re: the science in the classroom topic), scientific evidence of the creator must be present.
Philip - Heard of ‘primary cause - effect’ relationships in science?
You have evidence of the effects. The cause being God's input, is still outside of the realm of science.
quote:
minnemooseus - So, once again, where is the scientific theory of creation?
Philip - I’ve explicitly presented one such model for you in this post, under Only ‘Christian’ ID Makes Logical Sense ? The other debaters here have presented at least portions of scientific logic.
I'm one who was not able to follow your thought process in that new topic. I will try to get back to it, to look at the clarifications. In this topic, what the evolution side is looking for, is a coherrent outline of the "creation science" model. If it has happened, here or elsewhere, it has eluded me.
Lastly, I must state: I am not a biologist; in fact, my biology background is quite weak. I leave the biological aspects (other than paleontology) of this debate to others.
I'm not sure this message does anything to forward the debate, but I tried.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 05-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Philip, posted 05-07-2002 11:44 PM Philip has not replied

  
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