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Author | Topic: Human Races | |||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I would like you to tell me what objective 'cultural' traits that all Westerners share and all non-Westerners do not share. Why do you think that I think there are some? I don't remember saying that I thought that. I don't understand where this question comes from. Are you trying to change the subject or something?
'Hot' and 'cold' do not exist. Correct. They're subjective terms, constructed by the user. No two humans can agree on where hot becomes cold. On the other hand, all observers can agree at what point water becomes ice. That's at zero degrees Celsius.
Different degrees of temperature blend into one another Ludicrous. Temperature in degrees is a discreet property. 50 degrees doesn't "blend" into 51 or 49 degrees.
We are not discussing the existence of race here. We are discussing epistemology and the nature of categories. Ha! Maybe you are, but epistemology isn't the subject of this thread. The subject of the thread is race. I'll thank you to stay on topic, please.
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
I am not feeling so well, come to think about it. I may be getting sick. Wait. At what precise point does sickness become health?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many cultures there are. There's as many cultures as the people who are in cultures think there is. Of course, nobody argues that culture is biological, or that culture has any existence outside of human experience. People don't claim the same about race. People claim that race has real, biological meaning.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
At what precise point does sickness become health? At what point do your irrelevant questions become stupid, inane, irritating,and off-topic? Oops, past that point already.
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
quote: For the gallery: Gaius Caligula: Does 'culture' exist? Yes or no? crashfrog: Of course it does. Culture is garbage - it's the effluvium of communities eating, sleeping, screwing, and crapping in proximity. Anytime you put two humans in the same room you'll get culture. Making culture is what humans do. Okay, at what precise point does one 'culture' become another?
quote: I am not changing the subject at all. YOU have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. I obliged you and reduced the discussion to this level.
quote: Do 'hot' and 'cold' exist? For the last time, yes or no?
quote: ROFL what temperature would that be in Farenheit? Wait. Let me guess. Measurements of temperature in both Farenheit and Celsius both exist naturally.
quote: Measurements of temperature rely on categories constructed by humans.
quote: You have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. Now you are backtracking. What is the problem?
quote: Do you accept social constructionism? It would seem so. Do you even know what social constructionism is? [This message has been edited by Gaius Caligula, 03-05-2004]
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
quote: ROFL so let me get this straight. There are as many cultures as people who are in cultures think there is, and as you have argued, culture even exists, but race does not exist because know one knows how many races there are?
quote: Does 'Western culture' exist?
quote: You attacked race as a concept on epistemological grounds.
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
quote: Your bankrupt epistemology, upon which you have attacked the validity of race as a concept, is not irrelevent to this discussion.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Okay, at what precise point does one 'culture' become another? Again, that doesn't follow from what I said about culture.
Do 'hot' and 'cold' exist? For the last time, yes or no? Why are you asking again when I already told you that they don't? They're simply subjective terms.
ROFL what temperature would that be in Farenheit? 32 degrees. Maybe you failed grade school physics?
Measurements of temperature rely on categories constructed by humans. Constructed, yes, but also objective. Everybody agrees on exactly how much heat energy a degree of temperature represents.
You have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. Can you show me where, prior to your joining the thread, I ever said "epistemology"? Here's why I didn't - I'm not a philospher. "Epistemology" is essentially meaningless to me. I'm criticising conecpts of race because race doesn't have real meaning. It's a socially constructed category with no biological meaning. That was, after all, the topic of the thread - the biological meaning of race. You're the one who brought up epistemology.
Do you even know what social constructionism is? No. What's the relevance of it to the biological meaning of race, which is the topic of this thread?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Does 'Western culture' exist? I don't know. Do people think it does?
You attacked race as a concept on epistemological grounds. If you say so. My only position is, and always had been, that race is not a meaningful concept in biology.
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
quote: For the gallery, I will refresh your memory: crashfrog: Now, if you meant "cultural perceptions of race exist, so they should be studied," I agree Now, for the last time, what distinguishes one culture from another?
quote: LMAO so let me get this straight. ‘Subjective terms’ (i.e. hot/cold) do not exist while ‘objective’ terms do? Okay, what distinguishes ‘subjective’ terms from ‘objective’ ones?
quote: Who is right? Europeans who measure temperature in Celsius or Americans who measure temperature in Farenheit? Keep in mind here that measurements of temperature are categories constructed by humans.
quote: Measurements do not presuppose consciousness? Highways are not NATURALLY divided up into kilometers or miles.
quote: 32 degrees Farenheit or 0 degrees Celsius?
quote: I never said you mentioned epistemology. You did, however, attack the concept of race of epistemological grounds (as have many others in this thread).
quote: ROFL epistemology is the science devoted to the discovery of the proper methods of acquiring and validating knowledge. Any argument that asserts that ‘race does not exist’ presupposes a theory of knowledge. To say that ‘epistemology is essentially meaningless to me’ is to say that any standard by which knowledge is validated is meaningless. Congrats, you just demolished the foundation of your own argument.
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
quote: LOL
quote: Certainly. There are also people who believe they have been abducted by space aliens. Who are YOU to tell such individuals they are mistaken? After all, 'epistemology is essentially meaningless to me' right" (ROFL!). [This message has been edited by Gaius Caligula, 03-06-2004]
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Please use the little red reply button [i]at the very bottom of the post you are replying to, not the big "post reply" button at the bottom of the topic. This allows readers to see who you are replying to and ties the topic together.
Some individuals have an email notification sent when they are replied to and this isn't triggered unless you use the little red reply button (lrrb). Thanks for this.
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
quote: What is ‘real meaning’? Wait, why would such a question even interest you? After all, ‘epistemology is essentially meaningless for me’.
quote: LMAO social constructionists are anti-essentialists who REJECT objective meaning PERIOD. Just what is social constructionism? "There is no single description which would be adequate for all the different kinds of writer whom I shall refer to as social constructionist. This is because, although different writers may share some characteristics with others, there is not anything that they all have in common. What links them all together is a kind of 'family resemblance' (this is what Rosch (1973) meant by 'prototypes' or 'fuzzy sets'). Members of the same family differ in the family characteristics that they share. Mother and daughter may have the typical 'Smith nose', while father and son may have inherited from grandma Smith, who also has the Smith nose, their prominent ears. Cousin George may share the prominent ears, and also, like his aunt Harriet, have the Smith thick, curly hair. There is no one characteristic borne by all members of the Smith family, but there are enough recurrent features shared amongst different family members to identify the people as basically belonging to the same family group. This is the model I shall adopt for social constructionism. There is no one feature which could be said to identify a social constructionist position." Vivien Burr, An Introduction to Social Constructionism (London: Routledge, 1995), p.2 There is no one single feature that identifies a social constructionist from someone he is not. By their own argument, social constructionism must not exist! Notice here how it is claimed that social constructionists belong to a 'fuzzy set' type of category. Keep in mind that this is the EXACT same argument made by racialists when describing the concept of race, the very same argument the social constructionists reject when they say race does not exist! What is even more amusing here is comparing social constructionists to a biological extended family in order to justify social constructionism as a valid category.
quote: That is what we are discussing here — ‘meaning’ and ‘knowledge’. Any argument that asserts race exists or does not exist presupposes a theory of knowledge itself.
quote: crashfrog is a little slow so I will refresh his memory: crashfrog: It's [race] a socially constructed category with no biological meaning. Crashfrog here asserts that race is a ‘socially constructed’ category with no biological meaning. Crashfrog then goes on to state he/she does not even know what social constructionism is (LOL!). GG, pwnd
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Gaius Caligula Inactive Member |
Alrighty. I am new here. Cut me some slack.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Actually I thought I was being polite.
By the way, welcome. It is important to behave or the Queen will get you!!! So I was just making some suggestions before she finds out you are here.
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