Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Human Races
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 241 of 274 (90706)
03-05-2004 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:30 PM


I would like you to tell me what objective 'cultural' traits that all Westerners share and all non-Westerners do not share.
Why do you think that I think there are some? I don't remember saying that I thought that. I don't understand where this question comes from. Are you trying to change the subject or something?
'Hot' and 'cold' do not exist.
Correct. They're subjective terms, constructed by the user. No two humans can agree on where hot becomes cold.
On the other hand, all observers can agree at what point water becomes ice. That's at zero degrees Celsius.
Different degrees of temperature blend into one another
Ludicrous. Temperature in degrees is a discreet property. 50 degrees doesn't "blend" into 51 or 49 degrees.
We are not discussing the existence of race here. We are discussing epistemology and the nature of categories.
Ha! Maybe you are, but epistemology isn't the subject of this thread. The subject of the thread is race. I'll thank you to stay on topic, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:30 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:48 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 274 (90707)
03-05-2004 10:40 PM


I am not feeling so well, come to think about it. I may be getting sick. Wait. At what precise point does sickness become health?

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:43 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 243 of 274 (90708)
03-05-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:35 PM


On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many cultures there are.
There's as many cultures as the people who are in cultures think there is. Of course, nobody argues that culture is biological, or that culture has any existence outside of human experience.
People don't claim the same about race. People claim that race has real, biological meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:35 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 244 of 274 (90709)
03-05-2004 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:40 PM


At what precise point does sickness become health?
At what point do your irrelevant questions become stupid, inane, irritating,and off-topic? Oops, past that point already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:40 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:53 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 274 (90710)
03-05-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by crashfrog
03-05-2004 10:39 PM


quote:
Why do you think that I think there are some? I don't remember saying that I thought that.
For the gallery:
Gaius Caligula: Does 'culture' exist? Yes or no?
crashfrog: Of course it does. Culture is garbage - it's the effluvium of communities eating, sleeping, screwing, and crapping in proximity. Anytime you put two humans in the same room you'll get culture. Making culture is what humans do.
Okay, at what precise point does one 'culture' become another?
quote:
I don't understand where this question comes from. Are you trying to change the subject or something?
I am not changing the subject at all. YOU have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. I obliged you and reduced the discussion to this level.
quote:
Correct. They're subjective terms, constructed by the user. No two humans can agree on where hot becomes cold.
Do 'hot' and 'cold' exist? For the last time, yes or no?
quote:
On the other hand, all observers can agree at what point water becomes ice. That's at zero degrees Celsius.
ROFL what temperature would that be in Farenheit? Wait. Let me guess. Measurements of temperature in both Farenheit and Celsius both exist naturally.
quote:
Ludicrous. Temperature in degrees is a discreet property. 50 degrees doesn't "blend" into 51 or 49 degrees.
Measurements of temperature rely on categories constructed by humans.
quote:
Ha! Maybe you are, but epistemology isn't the subject of this thread.
You have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds. Now you are backtracking. What is the problem?
quote:
The subject of the thread is race. I'll thank you to stay on topic, please.
Do you accept social constructionism? It would seem so. Do you even know what social constructionism is?
[This message has been edited by Gaius Caligula, 03-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 11:12 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 274 (90711)
03-05-2004 10:51 PM


quote:
There's as many cultures as the people who are in cultures think there is.
ROFL so let me get this straight. There are as many cultures as people who are in cultures think there is, and as you have argued, culture even exists, but race does not exist because know one knows how many races there are?
quote:
Of course, nobody argues that culture is biological, or that culture has any existence outside of human experience.
Does 'Western culture' exist?
quote:
People don't claim the same about race. People claim that race has real, biological meaning.
You attacked race as a concept on epistemological grounds.

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 11:13 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 274 (90712)
03-05-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by crashfrog
03-05-2004 10:43 PM


quote:
At what point do your irrelevant questions become stupid, inane, irritating,and off-topic? Oops, past that point already.
Your bankrupt epistemology, upon which you have attacked the validity of race as a concept, is not irrelevent to this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:43 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 248 of 274 (90713)
03-05-2004 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:48 PM


Okay, at what precise point does one 'culture' become another?
Again, that doesn't follow from what I said about culture.
Do 'hot' and 'cold' exist? For the last time, yes or no?
Why are you asking again when I already told you that they don't? They're simply subjective terms.
ROFL what temperature would that be in Farenheit?
32 degrees. Maybe you failed grade school physics?
Measurements of temperature rely on categories constructed by humans.
Constructed, yes, but also objective. Everybody agrees on exactly how much heat energy a degree of temperature represents.
You have attacked the concept of race on epistemological grounds.
Can you show me where, prior to your joining the thread, I ever said "epistemology"? Here's why I didn't - I'm not a philospher. "Epistemology" is essentially meaningless to me.
I'm criticising conecpts of race because race doesn't have real meaning. It's a socially constructed category with no biological meaning. That was, after all, the topic of the thread - the biological meaning of race. You're the one who brought up epistemology.
Do you even know what social constructionism is?
No. What's the relevance of it to the biological meaning of race, which is the topic of this thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:48 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 249 of 274 (90714)
03-05-2004 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:51 PM


Does 'Western culture' exist?
I don't know. Do people think it does?
You attacked race as a concept on epistemological grounds.
If you say so. My only position is, and always had been, that race is not a meaningful concept in biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:51 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 274 (90791)
03-06-2004 10:37 AM


quote:
Again, that doesn't follow from what I said about culture.
For the gallery, I will refresh your memory:
crashfrog: Now, if you meant "cultural perceptions of race exist, so they should be studied," I agree
Now, for the last time, what distinguishes one culture from another?
quote:
Why are you asking again when I already told you that they don't? They're simply subjective terms.
LMAO so let me get this straight. ‘Subjective terms’ (i.e. hot/cold) do not exist while ‘objective’ terms do? Okay, what distinguishes ‘subjective’ terms from ‘objective’ ones?
quote:
32 degrees. Maybe you failed grade school physics?
Who is right? Europeans who measure temperature in Celsius or Americans who measure temperature in Farenheit? Keep in mind here that measurements of temperature are categories constructed by humans.
quote:
Constructed, yes, but also objective.
Measurements do not presuppose consciousness? Highways are not NATURALLY divided up into kilometers or miles.
quote:
Everybody agrees on exactly how much heat energy a degree of temperature represents.
32 degrees Farenheit or 0 degrees Celsius?
quote:
Can you show me where, prior to your joining the thread, I ever said "epistemology"?
I never said you mentioned epistemology. You did, however, attack the concept of race of epistemological grounds (as have many others in this thread).
quote:
Here's why I didn't - I'm not a philospher. "Epistemology" is essentially meaningless to me.
ROFL epistemology is the science devoted to the discovery of the proper methods of acquiring and validating knowledge. Any argument that asserts that ‘race does not exist’ presupposes a theory of knowledge. To say that ‘epistemology is essentially meaningless to me’ is to say that any standard by which knowledge is validated is meaningless. Congrats, you just demolished the foundation of your own argument.

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by crashfrog, posted 03-06-2004 7:03 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 274 (90792)
03-06-2004 10:40 AM


quote:
I don't know.
LOL
quote:
Do people think it does?
Certainly. There are also people who believe they have been abducted by space aliens. Who are YOU to tell such individuals they are mistaken? After all, 'epistemology is essentially meaningless to me' right" (ROFL!).
[This message has been edited by Gaius Caligula, 03-06-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by AdminNosy, posted 03-06-2004 10:49 AM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 252 of 274 (90795)
03-06-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Gaius Caligula
03-06-2004 10:40 AM


lrrb little red reply button
Please use the little red reply button [i]at the very bottom of the post you are replying to, not the big "post reply" button at the bottom of the topic. This allows readers to see who you are replying to and ties the topic together.
Some individuals have an email notification sent when they are replied to and this isn't triggered unless you use the little red reply button (lrrb). Thanks for this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-06-2004 10:40 AM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-06-2004 10:52 AM AdminNosy has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 274 (90796)
03-06-2004 10:51 AM


quote:
I'm criticising conecpts of race because race doesn't have real meaning.
What is ‘real meaning’? Wait, why would such a question even interest you? After all, ‘epistemology is essentially meaningless for me’.
quote:
It's a socially constructed category with no biological meaning.
LMAO social constructionists are anti-essentialists who REJECT objective meaning PERIOD. Just what is social constructionism?
"There is no single description which would be adequate for all the different kinds of writer whom I shall refer to as social constructionist. This is because, although different writers may share some characteristics with others, there is not anything that they all have in common. What links them all together is a kind of 'family resemblance' (this is what Rosch (1973) meant by 'prototypes' or 'fuzzy sets'). Members of the same family differ in the family characteristics that they share. Mother and daughter may have the typical 'Smith nose', while father and son may have inherited from grandma Smith, who also has the Smith nose, their prominent ears. Cousin George may share the prominent ears, and also, like his aunt Harriet, have the Smith thick, curly hair. There is no one characteristic borne by all members of the Smith family, but there are enough recurrent features shared amongst different family members to identify the people as basically belonging to the same family group. This is the model I shall adopt for social constructionism. There is no one feature which could be said to identify a social constructionist position."
Vivien Burr, An Introduction to Social Constructionism (London: Routledge, 1995), p.2
There is no one single feature that identifies a social constructionist from someone he is not. By their own argument, social constructionism must not exist! Notice here how it is claimed that social constructionists belong to a 'fuzzy set' type of category. Keep in mind that this is the EXACT same argument made by racialists when describing the concept of race, the very same argument the social constructionists reject when they say race does not exist! What is even more amusing here is comparing social constructionists to a biological extended family in order to justify social constructionism as a valid category.
quote:
That was, after all, the topic of the thread - the biological meaning of race. You're the one who brought up epistemology.
That is what we are discussing here — ‘meaning’ and ‘knowledge’. Any argument that asserts race exists or does not exist presupposes a theory of knowledge itself.
quote:
No. What's the relevance of it to the biological meaning of race, which is the topic of this thread?
crashfrog is a little slow so I will refresh his memory:
crashfrog: It's [race] a socially constructed category with no biological meaning.
Crashfrog here asserts that race is a ‘socially constructed’ category with no biological meaning. Crashfrog then goes on to state he/she does not even know what social constructionism is (LOL!).
GG, pwnd

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by crashfrog, posted 03-06-2004 7:07 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 274 (90797)
03-06-2004 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by AdminNosy
03-06-2004 10:49 AM


Re: lrrb little red reply button
Alrighty. I am new here. Cut me some slack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by AdminNosy, posted 03-06-2004 10:49 AM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by AdminNosy, posted 03-06-2004 11:10 AM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 255 of 274 (90802)
03-06-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Gaius Caligula
03-06-2004 10:52 AM


cutting slack
Actually I thought I was being polite.
By the way, welcome.
It is important to behave or the Queen will get you!!! So I was just making some suggestions before she finds out you are here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-06-2004 10:52 AM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024