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Author Topic:   RESURRECTION : THE EVIDENCE (+ Apostolic Martyrdom considerations)
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 2 of 233 (90839)
03-06-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
03-06-2004 5:48 PM


Now for the checkmate evidence.
With the exception of John, all of the disciples died a martyrs death ......
I've asked you this before WT, can you give me some reference for this? All I could ever find talked about "by tradition...", "stories say...."
I don't have access to primary literature, but I could find no one who even referenced primary literature, or anything for that matter. All I could ever find is hearsay.
I'm not saying that the references and proof of your quoted statement isn't out there, I'm just asking for ANYONE to show it to me.
I asked this question in the first thread you claimed it in. You ignored me. I opened a seperate topic for it, you ignored me. (other than to start a temper tantrum)
http://EvC Forum: Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree)
Is there some reason you don't want to discuss this, yet want to be able to continue making the claim?
[This message has been edited by Asgara, 03-06-2004]

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-06-2004 5:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-06-2004 7:01 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-07-2004 5:42 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 6 of 233 (90848)
03-06-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object
03-06-2004 6:59 PM


WT, I'm not sure what you mean by posting these items. Two are from the second century. One is "POSSIBLY" first century, according to Thiede.
What point are you making?

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-06-2004 6:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 35 of 233 (91028)
03-07-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object
03-07-2004 7:04 PM


Hi WT,
The checkmate evidence proves they were not liars
I believe that we are still waiting on this "checkmate evidence".
I am giving you time to research this claim of yours, but isn't it a bit disingenuous to continue to make the claim until the evidence is brought forth?

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-07-2004 7:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-07-2004 8:55 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 63 of 233 (91478)
03-09-2004 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Cold Foreign Object
03-09-2004 9:30 PM


Willowtree,
You continue to claim the martyrdom of the apostles. You continue to claim Strewn across N.T. geography are hundreds of sites that claim by tradition, legend, archival records, architecture, inscriptions, of the apostles/disciples presence. There are tens of thousands of books writtten about the apostles/disciples. Yet you have not given us reference to even one of these sourses. I'm not trying to argue that the various martyrdoms never occured. But I'll be damned if I'll accept that they did without somekind of reference. I have never found anything that stated more than "by tradition" or "it is said..".
Please, just toss me a FEW of these hundreds of sites.
You asked me before what I wanted. I want some kind of primary sourse that discusses the martyrdom of the apostles. Some of the "traditions" I have found were so outlandish that they basically said "this person died in one of four common ways somewhere in the known world".
Every honest, intelligent, and educated person knows the apostles/disciples existed and were martyred
By the way, I truly appreciate being called dishonest, stupid and uneducated.
[This message has been edited by Asgara, 03-09-2004]

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 9:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:28 PM Asgara has replied
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:32 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 66 of 233 (91493)
03-10-2004 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Cold Foreign Object
03-09-2004 10:28 PM


WT,
I have read exerpts from some of the books you reference. I will get each and read it when I have the time and money. I will note that what I have read concerning these books does not lead me to believe that they are any different then your own apologetics.
It might be some time before I have access to these books, so maybe you could list some of the resourses they have used in reference. Surely this shouldn't be too difficult, as I know you wouldn't offer me books that didn't list the references that I asked for.
One reference I have seen is Dr. William Steuart McBirnie, in "The Search for the Twelve Apostles". Though he continues to believe as you do, he could find no reference other than "tradition", and conflicting tradition at that. He found not one piece of evidence truly supporting any martyred death and not one piece uncontradicted by another.
As for listening to Scott, you are correct, I am no fan. I promise to listen to a few of his sermons if you can point me in a more direct fashion to what I am looking for. One thing I will not do is listen to hours and hours of Gene Scott in an attempt to get my question answered.
The sermons of Scott's that I have listened to, make me question whether or not you understand the meaning of objectivity, as that is the last word I would use in reference to Gene Scott sermons.
Thank you for qualifying (a bit) your quip on intelligence.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-09-2004 10:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 74 of 233 (91603)
03-10-2004 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Cold Foreign Object
03-10-2004 3:05 PM


WT,
If you know where and how each were martyred, then why the run around with the answer? It should be easy to give us this information along with your sources. Please do so.
If you do NOT know, then you are playing games here.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-10-2004 3:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-10-2004 8:56 PM Asgara has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 78 of 233 (91667)
03-10-2004 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Cold Foreign Object
03-10-2004 8:56 PM


Wow! I honestly ask some questions that I do not have the answers to. You claim to know the answers but refuse to tell. Now maybe you will explain to me just why in the hell anyone would take you serious ever again? That had to be the shoddiest answer to an honest question I have ever heard.
I am not a dishonest person. If I knew the answers to my questions I would not have asked you. You made a claim, I asked for references because I had heard the claim before and could never find any thing other than stories. You now claim to know the answers I am looking for, you claim voluminous amounts of evidence yet refuse to divulge any of it. And you are back to calling me ignorant and now dishonest.
Well WT, I now know that you are the dishonest one. You have avoided this question from me since you first joined this forum and continue to avoid it. I will now assume that you don't know the answer and will call you on it, every time you make the claim.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-10-2004 8:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-11-2004 10:49 AM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 106 of 233 (91910)
03-11-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Cold Foreign Object
03-11-2004 8:30 PM


from post 90 - This debate is experiencing wholesale denial of evidence posted after post one.
The problem is a room full of "debaters" who refuse to even recognize all that I have posted since post 1.
Willowtree...maybe you could tell me in WHICH of these posts, summarized below, did you post evidence???????
1. The following 8 facts must be assumed as facts or it is pointless to talk about the Resurrection. And the following 8 facts are progressively easier to prove than the Resurrection, that is, in sequence, starting with number 1 and ending with number 8, these 8 facts are easier to prove than the Resurrection.
1) Jesus lived
2) crucified a) by the Romans
b) instigated by certain Jewish leaders
3) considered dead
4) buried in a known accessible tomb
5) preached; raised, ascended, and an empty tomb
6) Jewish leaders concerned to disprove
7) persecution of disciples for claiming He raised
8) empty tomb/Jewish leaders position at stake.
These 8 things must be assumed as fact, as they are, starting from number 1 being the most easy to prove, with number 8 being the hardest to prove, and of course the Resurrection itself to be the most difficult to prove
4. listed three 2nd and possibly 3rd century texts and called Chip a know nothing, mouthing ignorance
5. told me you weren’t ignoring me.
12. answered to AdminBrian on the ad homenim from post 4.
13. asked me if I wanted book titles about the apostles.
14. explained the texts from post 4 and called them 1st thru 2nd century.
16. retracted insult from 4. rant on Jesus Seminar.
18. discussed regaining God sense with Rand.
23. told PaulK to read post 16.
24. told Ned that part of the NT was found in Qumran 7
26. more about Q7 and Theide and the JS not believing in miracles
30. again make the checkmate evidence claim.
32. more about miracles and myths
37. telling me you don’t know what I am asking for. And asking US to prove you wrong
42. telling Schraf that you have no trouble believing the miracle claims of other religionstwo possible sources: god or satan
45. telling Chip that things have to be assumed in any debatemaking martyr claim again
46. short post on Q7 again
47. telling Ned about two sources of miracle again: god or satan
48. talk about miracles with Chip
49. disputing Crash about martyrs of other religions
50. laughing at Ned’s talk of aliens.
59. long post accusing everyone of lying concerning knowledge of the apostles and their deaths..hundreds of sites a fact that every honest and intelligent and educated person knows again requiring the 8 assumptions
60. telling Brian to read 59.
61. saying that if Jesus rose then everything he said is validated to be truetalking about witchdoctors in Haiti and Africa
62. short post to Crash about his saying that Atheism changed his life for the bettershort point about 11 losers becoming 11 men of iron
64. told me to read three apologetics and listen to some sermons by Scott (I replied asking for the references these books had and asking for specifics on the sermons you meant)
65. sort of apologized to me concerning the ad homenims in 59.
72. quote I never said I didn’t know where or how each were
martyred.
73. calling Hitchy ignorant about myth statement
77. again claim to KNOW this evidence and refusal to give itclaims of dishonesty in your opponents
83. said There is no avoidance claim to have answered my questions alreadymore claims of dishonesty
90. claim of denial of evidence posted after post one claims
of revision
98. telling N-lighter to read an apologetic by Sherlock
99. argument with PaulK about John and Alexander.
100. claims of ..a room full of debaters who refuse to even recognize all you have posted since post 1.
101. claims of massive and voluminous amount of evidence that you again refuse to divulgetalk of dishonesty again

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-11-2004 8:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-14-2004 4:51 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 126 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-15-2004 11:41 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 109 of 233 (91925)
03-11-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Wertbag
03-11-2004 10:50 PM


Thanks for the link Wert. I have seen this one and many others. And the only reference ever listed for the claims not made in the bible are "by tradition" or "stories say". What I have been looking for for several months from WT is the actual evidence that these "stories" are true. He continues to claim that the evidence is "voluminous" and he knows where and how (post 77) each died. He claims to have this evidence and he claims to have given it to us already.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Wertbag, posted 03-11-2004 10:50 PM Wertbag has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by 1.61803, posted 03-12-2004 1:13 AM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 142 of 233 (92929)
03-17-2004 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Cold Foreign Object
03-17-2004 2:53 AM


But in this debate, starting in Post 37, and repeated in posts 45, 59, 77, 101, and 126, was a specific challenge for anyone to produce ONE shred of evidence that contradicted the claim that the apostles/disciples did not die horribly, alone, for the report of the Resurrection.
Willowtree, you cannot get out of supporting a claim by later making a counterclaim. In post 2 of this thread, I called you on making the claim that the apostles all died a horrible martyr's death, alone for their beliefs. I have asked you in several threads about this and you have yet to answer me.
post 1 - you make the claim
post 2 - I ask for supporting evidence
post 3 to 141 - you say "well you can't prove it wrong"
That is NOT how it works and everyone here has been telling you the same thing. You made the existential claim, it is up to you to support it. You say evidence exists for your claim, you claim that you KNOW this evidence...please supply it!

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-17-2004 2:53 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 152 of 233 (93240)
03-18-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Cold Foreign Object
03-18-2004 9:40 PM


WT, has anyone ever told you how exasperating you are?
Your challenge is MOOT. The initial question, challenge if you will, was mine. Support your claim or quit making it. You CANNOT get around a request for evidence by twisting it on its ear and saying "You have to prove it's wrong."
The initial claim was yours, that all the apostles except John died horrible martyr's deaths, alone for their beliefs.
The challenge was mine, what evidence is there for this claim. I can find nothing that lists any primary source, everything talks of "by tradition" or "stories say."
I am now asking_one_more_time! What is this "checkmate evidence?" You claim to know it, now produce it.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-18-2004 9:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-18-2004 11:32 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 153 of 233 (93241)
03-18-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Cold Foreign Object
03-18-2004 9:59 PM


Re: Topic title modification notice
Willowtree, I KNEW you were going to whine about the title change. But you know what? It doesn't matter anymore. This does it. You are NOT an honest debator. You are NOT debating in good faith. Do not take this as ad hominem, this is my stated opinion...You are worthless to talk to, your topic is worthless, your idol worship of Gene Scott is laughable, your tactics are deceitful.
I retract my question of you...you have no clue of the answer.
EDIT: the only deafening silence came from YOU, when everyone else on this thread started making the same request....support or retract.
[This message has been edited by Asgara, 03-18-2004]

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-18-2004 9:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 199 of 233 (94286)
03-23-2004 11:19 PM


I'm not making any claims for these sites, as I found them when googling "date of passover". All I know is that I havent' found one site yet that lists Wed as the day of death. I don't know where Scotty got a Wed for 33CE, every site I've looked at lists that as a Fri. Maybe we will be enlightened as to what is wrong with everyone else's chronology.
http://www.doig.net/NTCIV.htm
The day of the crucifixion of Jesus was a Wednesday, Thursday or a Friday. That day on the Jewish calendar was Nisan 14 or Nisan 15, depending on whether the day was reckoned from sunrise or sunset. There are six possible combinations leading to four possible dates of the crucifixion. These dates are Thursday, April 6, 30 CE, Friday, April 7, 30 CE, Wednesday, March 28, 31 CE and Friday, April 3, 33 CE. On which day was Jesus nailed1 to the cross?
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/crucifixion.html
The most commonly proposed dates for the Crucifixion are April 7, A.D. 30, and April 3, A.D. 33 (on the Julian Calendar). Humphreys and Waddington conclude that the latter date is correct. Schaefer decides that their conclusion is reasonable. A definitive solution will require an independent record of the event on a fully documented calendar
http://www.levitt.com/essays/pentecost.html
As for the New Testament record, it is clear that Jesus arose from the dead on Sunday, the First Day of the Week, the day after the Sabbath, as the fulfillment of the feast of First Fruits. What day of the month was this that year? We believe that Thursday was Nisan 14, the day the Passover lambs were sacrificed. Jesus ate the traditional Passover and died on Friday, Nisan 15, and arose from the dead on Sunday, Nisan 17. This would mean Pentecost fell that year on Sivan 7.
http://www.phys.uu.nl/...ellamagorum/stellamagorum_text4.htm
Others, following the report in some early Christian sources (Report of Pontius Pilate, version I & II) that the Moon had turned red as blood during the Crucifixion, have suggested the darkness mentioned in the synoptic gospels may have referred to the Moon that rose eclipsed on the evening of 3 April A.D. 33.
http://www.spiritrestoration.org...
Since we have been able to determine that Christ died on Friday, the 14th of Nisan, we can now turn to solunar tables to determine which year(s) we would find the 14th of Nisan falling on a Friday. Remember, Jewish months are not reckoned by the Earth's rotation around the Sun, but by the Moon's rotation around the Earth. We find that the 14th Of Nisan would fall on a Friday in the years 30 and 33 AD In the year 31 AD, Passover was on a Tuesday, and in 32 AD, it was on a Monday. Thus, we find that the death of Christ must have fallen on the 14th of Nisan in either 30 or 33 AD.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-24-2004 10:39 AM Asgara has not replied
 Message 207 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-25-2004 9:50 PM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 210 of 233 (94872)
03-25-2004 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Rand Al'Thor
03-25-2004 11:21 PM


Rand, the story I have always heard about April Fool's Day concerned the 1582 switch to the Gregorian calendar. Prior to this, the new year was celebrated right after the vernal equinox...right around the first of April. When the switch was made many people did not hear about it right away and continued to celebrate in the spring. Others refused the change right away. Members of these two groups were referred to as fools, or April fools.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 03-25-2004 11:21 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 224 of 233 (95731)
03-29-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by xandrezz
03-29-2004 4:57 PM


Re: What does Dr. Scott actually teach about the Resurrection?
Hi xandrezz, welcome to the forum.
I just finished reading your link to Scott's sermon on the resurrection. I will say that WillowTree seems to have conveyed Scott's message quite well. The fact is, though, that Scott's message falls apart under scrutiny and that is what this entire thread has been discussing.
Scott has people making assumptions in order to have a meaningful discussion of the resurrection. He claims that if you don't believe in these assumptions it is useless to discuss the rest. He claims that proving these assumptions is much easier than proving the resurrection yet he makes no effort to show us this easy proof.
The simple facts are that NO, I don't know that he lived, and if he did then NO, I don't know that he was crucified, and if he was then NO, I don't know that he was actually taken down from the cross dead, etc.
It seems that most of Scott's body of evidence of the resurrection are these assumptions. One assumption that I have been trying to get information about is the death of the apostles. Willow claimed to have this evidence yet refused to reveal it. I have heard and found nothing except tradition and legend.
Scott had this to say about the deaths of the apostles:
You don't pay the price these men paid to tell a lie. All of them, save John, died a martyr's death: Bartholemew flayed to death with a whip in Armenia; Thomas pierced with a Brahmin sword; Peter crucified upside down, St. Andrew crucified on St. Andrew's cross (from which it gets its name); Luke hanged by idolatrous priests, Mark dragged to death in the streets of Alexandria. These men paid beyond human belief for their "lie."
Yet I have found traditions and legends that say that
1. Bartholemew was either whipped, beheaded, crucifed or speared in either Armenia, Russia or India.
2. Thomas either speared or beheaded or shot with arrows in either India or Persia
3. Peter crucified by Nero in either 64ce, 66ce or 67ce (when Nero might not even have been in Rome)
4. Andrew either crucified or bound to death with possible dates separated by 14 years.
5. Luke either hanged in Greece somewhere within a 25 year span, died of old age or even claims that no information is available.
6. Mark either dragged to death by horses or torn to pieces by a mob.
(my favorite is Simon who was supposedly killed in one of three totally distinct methods, somewhere in the known world at that time)
So, one of the big assumptions that Scott wants us to accept has not been verified historically that I can find. I will ask you the same question I have been asking Willowtree since he joined this forum...
I am not claiming that they didn't die a horrible martyr's death, alone for their beliefs. I am asking for something other then contradicting traditions and legends showing any of this happened.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by xandrezz, posted 03-29-2004 4:57 PM xandrezz has not replied

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