COVID vaccine works - we're saved!

Kleinman:

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The same principles of the suppression of the evolution of drug resistance of HIV to 3-drug therapy apply to Covid, Influenza, or any kind of replicator that you can think of.

Percy:

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If you still want to discuss this then the appropriate thread is the one where you were originally discussing it. Please don't turn this thread into another discussion of the same thing.

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You said the following in Message 662.

Percy:

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That's great! I think everyone here would love to learn something new. Please begin your explanations for how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail and some physics and mathematics and how that is all relevant to the Socratic-style questions you've been asking.

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Isn't this thread about the spread of Covid and other infectious diseases such as tuberculosis? I don't think you understand how vaccines work even though you say you do. A vaccine doesn't protect you from getting infected with the given disease or necessarily prevent the spread of the disease. The evolution of resistance to a vaccine obeys the same mathematics as the evolution of resistance to any other selection pressure.

I'll recuse myself from discussion for the requisite two days then assume moderatorship of this thread.--Percy

Percy:

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I'll recuse myself from discussion for the requisite two days then assume moderatorship of this thread.

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I hope all is well with you and look forward to continuing the discussion with you then. In the meantime, you might consider the following.
From THE LANCET
The overlooked pandemic of antimicrobial resistance
From FOX NEWS
'Silent pandemic' warning from WHO: Bacteria killing too many people due to antimicrobial resistance
And the following link is from MSN.com:
WHO warns of a ‘Silent pandemic’
I could post many other references to this problem if you want. The point you need to understand is that it is much easier to solve a problem if you understand it first. Teaching medical providers that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals is not the way to teach how drug resistance evolves, our silent pandemic.

The thread is about the COVID vaccine. The clue is in the title and the post #1. I suspect that we DO know how vaccines work but I also suspect that you're going to say something incredibly dumb about them that flies in the face of all known facts. And there it is. Full on stupid.

irrelevant to this topic.

Kleinman:

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Isn't this thread about the spread of Covid and other infectious diseases such as tuberculosis?

Tangle:

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The thread is about the COVID vaccine. The clue is in the title and the post #1.

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Tangle's title for this thread:

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Topic: COVID vaccine works - we're saved!

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Saved from what?

Kleinman:

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I don't think you understand how vaccines work even though you say you do.

Tangle:

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I suspect that we DO know how vaccines work but I also suspect that you're going to say something incredibly dumb about them that flies in the face of all known facts.

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Tell us all you learned about how vaccines work in your zoology courses. Then you can tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

Kleinman:

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A vaccine doesn't protect you from getting infected with the given disease or necessarily prevent the spread of the disease.

Tangle:

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And there it is. Full on stupid.

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Even your own first post shows you are wrong.

Tangle:

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Good old science eh?

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Covid vaccine: First 'milestone' vaccine offers 90% protection - BBC News

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Why isn't the vaccine 100% effective? Why don't you explain how vaccines work since you have so much experience using them and you learned all about them in your zoology courses?

Theodoric:

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irrelevant to this topic.

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Has your wife explained to you how drug resistance evolves since it is a silent pandemic according to the World Health Organization?

Kleinman is leading the discussion off-topic, as he has multiple topics so far. Time to stop feeding the troll.
We may see some moderation in a couple of days to get us back on topic.

This seems relevant to covid, so I'll comment.A vaccine ramps up the immune system to target a specific type of pathogen. The immune system is a complex system that can maintain, to varying extents dependent upon pathogen, a history of past infections.Because the cells of the immune system exist only within the body, they cannot mount a defense against a pathogen until it enters the body and is detected by the immune system. In other words, the immune system cannot begin to do it's job until you're already infected.What usually happens with a successfully vaccinated person is that the pathogen enters the body and is detected by the immune system, which then fights it off. Oftentimes the person does not even know he was ever infected.Whether a pathogen spreads through a population is dependent upon many factors, including existing immunity (which doesn't really mean immunity in this context), the vaccination rate, the effectiveness of the vaccine, the effectiveness of its administration, and individual response to the vaccine.This is all information that has been presented in this thread before. See Message 254 for a better explanation of immunity and how the immune system works.--Percy

Kleinman:

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A vaccine doesn't protect you from getting infected with the given disease or necessarily prevent the spread of the disease.

Tangle:

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And there it is. Full on stupid.

Percy:

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This seems relevant to covid, so I'll comment.
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A vaccine ramps up the immune system to target a specific type of pathogen. The immune system is a complex system that can maintain, to varying extents dependent upon pathogen, a history of past infections.
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Because the cells of the immune system exist only within the body, they cannot mount a defense against a pathogen until it enters the body and is detected by the immune system. In other words, the immune system cannot begin to do it's job until you're already infected.
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What usually happens with a successfully vaccinated person is that the pathogen enters the body and is detected by the immune system, which then fights it off. Oftentimes the person does not even know he was ever infected.
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Whether a pathogen spreads through a population is dependent upon many factors, including existing immunity (which doesn't really mean immunity in this context), the vaccination rate, the effectiveness of the vaccine, the effectiveness of its administration, and individual response to the vaccine.
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This is all information that has been presented in this thread before. See Message 254 for a better explanation of immunity and how the immune system works.

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The point that you are missing is that no vaccine can be 100% effective because the infectious agent does not consist of 100% clones. There is diversity in that population and unless the antibody can cross-react with all variants, the vaccine will not be 100% effective. That's why different influenza vaccines need to be used every year and even then, the trivalent vaccine can miss the intended target. The reason why the population does not consist of clones is descent with modification. Some of those modifications will give resistant variants. You also need to consider that some people will not produce the appropriate antibodies when given a particular antigen (vaccine) because they don't have the appropriate genetics.

the Kleinbottle replies: Well, jeez, Sherlock...who'd a thunk it. DUH.The point you're missing it that vaccines are often ENOUGH to prevent a calamitous spreading across a population.
And trained professionals are busy addressing the viral evolution even as we speak.You do not have the right to spread a contagious disease, period.Seatbelts are not 100% effective. Do you wear a seatbelt?

Kleinman:

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The point that you are missing is that no vaccine can be 100% effective because the infectious agent does not consist of 100% clones.

xongsmith:

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Well, jeez, Sherlock...who'd a thunk it. DUH.
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The point you're missing it that vaccines are often ENOUGH to prevent a calamitous spreading across a population.
And trained professionals are busy addressing the viral evolution even as we speak.
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You do not have the right to spread a contagious disease, period.
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Seatbelts are not 100% effective. Do you wear a seatbelt?

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Seatbelts are not 100% effective because of descent with modification, that's the reason that vaccines are not 100% effective. You don't have the right to spread a contagious disease but infected people do spread contagious diseases. Do you want to lock up everyone that has a contagious disease?

Let me rewrite this for you in a way that makes it seem like you're trying to be informative and helpful:

Kleinman as rewritten by Percy:

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You list a number of factors impacting vaccine effectiveness, but another worth mentioning is pathogen diversity. Vaccines are typically targeted at a single variant, but pathogen populations are invariably more diverse than that.

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Though already mentioned in this thread, it's worth repeating that covid, like most pathogens, evolves new variants over time. The most well known are delta and omicron, and the vaccines have proven less effective with each new variant. There is push from some quarters for new vaccines that better target the newer variants. The current dominant variant in the US is XBB.1.5 (87.9% of new cases as of the beginning of the month). The influenza vaccine has to be reinvented every year because of new variants. Tuberculosis (which is bacterial, not viral) has evolved drug resistant variants.

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And as you also already mentioned, individual response to vaccines will vary. Some people will not produce the appropriate antibodies when given a particular antigen (vaccine) because they don't have the appropriate genetics.

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--Percy

Kleinman:

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The point that you are missing is that no vaccine can be 100% effective because the infectious agent does not consist of 100% clones. There is diversity in that population and unless the antibody can cross-react with all variants, the vaccine will not be 100% effective. That's why different influenza vaccines need to be used every year and even then, the trivalent vaccine can miss the intended target. The reason why the population does not consist of clones is descent with modification. Some of those modifications will give resistant variants. You also need to consider that some people will not produce the appropriate antibodies when given a particular antigen (vaccine) because they don't have the appropriate genetics.

Percy:

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Let me rewrite this for you in a way that makes it seem like you're trying to be informative and helpful:

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Are you telling me that the people on this forum are interested in being informed? Why don't you rewrite the mathematics I've presented that explains descent with modification and adaptation which defeats the effectiveness of vaccines, antimicrobial treatments, and cancer treatments when used as single drug therapies by selecting for drug-resistant variants including Covid? Perhaps you could find a way of explaining to the members why evolution (descent with modification and adaptation) to multiple simultaneous selection pressures is much more difficult for a population to do because of the multiplication rule of probabilities. Natural selection has limitations.

more from Kleinman: OK, so among the many reasons, probably more the variation of the accident, but so what? The current work on new vaccines is never 100, but 90 is enough to slow down the rate.Nurses were asked about masking during the flu season and they are for it, even before COVID arrived. No. Perhaps they should properly mask up!