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Author | Topic: COVID vaccine works - we're saved! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
vimesey:Why don't you quote from your link? I have and here is from Message 788. Interpretation The findings of this systematic review and meta-analysis support physical distancing of 1 m or more and provide quantitative estimates for models and contact tracing to inform policy. Optimum use of face masks, respirators, and eye protection in public and health-care settings should be informed by these findings and contextual factors. Robust randomised trials are needed to better inform the evidence for these interventions, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence might inform interim guidance.
Why would they say, "Robust randomised trials are needed to better inform the evidence for these interventions, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence might inform interim guidance"? It wouldn't have to do with the fact that the data doesn't show that generalized mask mandates have helped to reduce the spread of the virus? It would never enter your mind that generalize mask mandates may actually cause an increase in the spread of infection. Do you know why?
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vimesey Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Their interpretation is an appraisal of the best interim evidence, as they have stated.
Yours is invented, unevidenced denial. Now, should we trust the full assessment of a study undertaken by scientists on behalf of the leading medical journal in this Country (The Lancet), or the desperate denials of a sad religious nutjob, who has no evidence to back up his sad mewling ? As an intelligent man of decency, who knows a great many scientists and is aware of their intelligence, kindness and dedication to humanity, the answer is spectacularly obvious to me. (The one plus I will give you is that you do at least provide some mild entertainment.)Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
vimesey:They state that they don't have the data and neither do you that a generalized mask mandate will decrease the spread of the virus. And you don't know why a generalized mask mandate may actually increase the spread of the virus. The clue is in the quote that I posted from your link. A great intellect like you must know the reason, so explain to us why the findings from your link may show that a generalized mask mandate may actually cause an increase in the spread of the virus. Come on vimesey, amuse us all with your great intellect.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Kleinman writes: Are you claiming that your so-called experts were not telling people that vaccination prevents a person from spreading infectious disease? I'm not aware of any experts saying this. You'll have to tell me who you mean and what they said.
I do this because drug resistance is part of the problem of the spread of infectious diseases. For example, many STD variants are now resistant to drugs used to treat them. There are now drug-resistant variants to the anti-influenza drugs used. I think many of the so-called experts do not understand the problems that they are supposed to have expertise on. Drug resistance and how it develops seems well understood by just about everyone. It's why we're advised to complete a medication regimen (although this advice seems to be undergoing some reconsideration). You'll have to tell me who you're talking about and what they're saying that leads you to believe they don't understand drug resistance. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Kleinman writes: Kleinman:Where has descent with modification and adaptation been explained? It's been explained many times at this site, including recently in this thread. This website's core purpose is discussion of evolution. If you think it's been covered inadequately, either in just this thread or throughout the site, then this is your opportunity to correct that lack.
Kleinman:It's all about descent with modification and adaptation. Vaccines are selection pressures and when you have diversity in the population, vaccines won't be universally effective if resistant variants are in the population. Yes, this was already covered in recent posts.
Kleinman:Perhaps so, but I do know how descent with modification and adaptation works. And it is the reason that influenza vaccines have to be changed every year and why Covid vaccines are not 100% effective. This, too, has already been said here.
Kleinman:Try not to be so mockable. You invented what you're mocking. Why not just discuss the topic and dispense with the sideshow?
Percy:Was the urgency due to fear and overreaction to a perceived threat? With over a million deaths in this country alone, the threat was apparently very real.
I know people that have died after catching influenza. Should all the policies instituted for Covid be instituted for influenza? Why do you ask? When covid restrictions were first being instituted there was no vaccine. We already had annual vaccines for influenza.
Vaccines are pretty safe because they undergo extensive testing based on years of experience using these drugs. Fear is not a good reason to discard this experience and push out a vaccine that hasn't been fully tested. I think health agencies around the world tried to balance risk and benefit.
Kleinman:Why don't the agencies responsible post the data? If you're asking about data on "normally healthy people suddenly dying after being given the vaccine," that's not something I've heard anything about, but the top item on search found Risk of death following COVID-19 vaccination or positive SARS-CoV-2 test in young people in England published just last month. From the abstract:
quote: There's more detail if you follow the link.
Kleinman:Do the math with your own numbers. 0.5%*100,000,000=500,000 people with adverse reactions for every 100,000,000 vaccinated. Yeah, that's pretty much what a .5% adverse reaction rate would mean, but I think my point wasn't clear. .5% wasn't calculated from real data. I only used the example of a million people suffering adverse reactions because obviously that didn't happen since so many incidents couldn't pass unnoticed, and even that large number would only represent a .5% adverse reaction rate anyway. Whatever the adverse reaction rate actually was it must have been pretty tiny. The top result of a search was Reported Adverse Events from the CDC:
quote: The possibility of anaphylaxis is why people were asked to wait fifteen minutes before leaving after their shot to make sure they suffered no reaction. 5 cases per million vaccinations is a .0005% rate.
How many people got COVID and died from the disease (these numbers are questionable because the death rate from cancer, heart disease, and other causes dropped since COVID is being reported). As of April 12 there have been approximately 1.1 million deaths from covid in the US. There are approximately 200 additional deaths every week at the current time. Addressing your concern that deaths from other causes were being misdiagnosed as covid deaths, the National Institutes of Health reports in Monthly excess mortality across counties in the United States during the Covid-19 pandemic, March 2020 to February 2022:
quote: The sum of those two numbers representing the period from March 2020 to February 2022 is about 1.2 million. I don't have excess death figures up through the present, but this would seem to indicate that excess deaths exceeded covid deaths by at least a hundred thousand and that heart-related and cancer deaths were not hidden in the data.
Then you might understand why some people refused the vaccine, the risk-benefit ratio was not good enough for them to take the vaccine. The risk of adverse reaction from the vaccine was .0005% and the risk of death even lower. The risk of contracting and dying from covid was .0033% since it first appeared here in early 2020, or about 70 times greater. The greatly increased risk for refusing the vaccine seems not to justify such a decision. The graph I posted earlier of vaccination rates versus death rates (from all causes) by state clearly indicates a benefit from the vaccine. Red states would appear to have suffered disproportionately higher death rates due to their lower vaccination rates.
But people like you want these people to lose their jobs and have them locked up because they will spread a contagious disease. Why not fire and lock up those that got the vaccine but still spread the disease? What I actually believe is that members of a society all benefit when individuals behave in ways that don't adversely affect other people. Obviously, balancing conflicting concerns (e.g., illness/death versus making a living) is not simple. --Percy
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
And all of science rejects your BS and says you are an incompetent fraud who doesn't know the difference between sexual and asexual reproduction. Your ideas are not obsolete, because they have always been incorrect. Rejected again.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:How did Joe Biden get the idea that vaccinated people cannot spread Covid? Kleinman:Of course, taking a complete regimen is very bad advice to treat an infection or prevent drug resistance, only lazy, unknowledgeable doctors give that kind of advice. If there was a widespread understanding of the evolution of drug resistance, the Kishony experiment would have been explained long ago. Feel free to post any papers that explain how drug resistance evolves. I'll help you, here is a couple that explains the process. For a single selection pressure (single drug therapy): The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures (multiple simultaneous drug drug therapy) The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance It is really a very simple probability problem to explain descent with modification and adaptation which as you know is a stochastic process.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Ok, I can see that you are tired of trying to explain your view of descent with modification and adaptation. I see no point in starting a new thread on this topic because the members of this forum can't explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments. But perhaps you could help vimesey understand why his link shows that generalized mask mandates may actually cause an increase in the spread of the Covid virus. I refer you to Message 811 which gives a quote from his link that gives this possibility.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:It's only rejected by poorly trained biologists like you that have little understanding of biological and physical science, and mathematics. The proof of this fact is that you can't explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments. You also don't understand why vimesey's link shows that generalized mask mandates may actually increase the spread of the Covid virus.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
No citations = total rejection by all of science.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Taypteryx:Why haven't you or any other poorly trained biologist pointed out the errors in the math or physics I've presented?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Taq handed you your ass months ago.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Tanypteryx:Taq seems to have disappeared after trying to make the claim that ERVs were LTRs. Do you want to take up that ridiculous argument?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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You are daft! We all watched him hand you your ass on that too.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Why haven't you or any other poorly trained biologist pointed out the errors in the math or physics I've presented? Because you are ignored. They have better things to do than expose known charlatans yet again. No one believes you, Kleinman. You have become nothing.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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