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Author Topic:   The Biden Presidency
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 361 of 473 (911329)
06-26-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Diomedes
06-26-2023 1:30 PM


Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
What has changed is that we have substantially more access to information and an ongoing 24 hr news cycle. Couple that with social media, and it gives the impression that things are horrible and getting worse. They are not.
I think they are. Am I simply deluded by propaganda? Percy thinks every YouTube video is worthless, but Im not convinced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Diomedes, posted 06-26-2023 1:30 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by nwr, posted 06-26-2023 3:03 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 06-26-2023 6:40 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 365 by Diomedes, posted 06-27-2023 9:19 AM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 362 of 473 (911330)
06-26-2023 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
06-26-2023 2:28 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
Phat in Message 361 writes:
Am I simply deluded by propaganda?
That sure looks like a good diagnosis.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity <-- <--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 06-26-2023 2:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 363 of 473 (911332)
06-26-2023 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Phat
06-26-2023 12:49 PM


Re: Any Comments On Hunter Biden Plea Deal?
Phat writes:
So essentially that's all that there is to it?
Yes, that's all there is to it, but you don't have to take my word for it. There are a great many legitimate and free news outlets available on the web. Stop watching YouTube.
I recently had a brief conversation about the Internet with a young person, maybe 26 or so, who said he got his news from WhatsApp. Social media like Twitter and WhatsApp and so forth are poor sources of news because you only see the articles people link to. Most people follow friends or people they agree with, and so they're most likely to be pointed at articles that are more opinion than news and that only reinforce what they already believe. Most people immerse themselves in an echo chamber of opinions they already share.
If you want actual news then read a newspaper (the news section, not the opinion section) with a good journalistic reputation. You want reliable new sources that have developed strong journalistic traditions over decades. Such traditions don't just pop up overnight at social media sites or influencer accounts.
Only after you know what actually happened does it make sense to access other sources of information. Some are based on what actually happened, some less so, some very much less so, and some not at all. If you're getting your "facts" from bad sources then there's a good chance you're not getting real facts. That you are a font of false facts is because you grant credibility to sources that have done nothing to earn it and everything to question it.
I don't think that the US is in a good position for continuing to print money to cover their obligations.
If this is about the long run of large annual deficits then probably most of us agree that we should try to reduce the annual deficit.
If this is about fiat money again, something you've criticized often, then you should probably take it to a more appropriate thread.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 06-26-2023 12:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 364 of 473 (911333)
06-26-2023 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
06-26-2023 2:28 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
Phat writes:
What has changed is that we have substantially more access to information and an ongoing 24 hr news cycle. Couple that with social media, and it gives the impression that things are horrible and getting worse. They are not.
I think they are.
That's it? That's your whole rebuttal? Diomedes writes over a hundred words of explanation and that's all you have to say in reply? What is wrong with you? How is anyone to have an intelligent dialogue with you if you're entire response boils down to, "Nope!"
Am I simply deluded by propaganda?
You keep asking this question in various forms, and everyone always answers yes. What is it going to take to convince you that you are a helpless rube for certain types of misinformation?
Percy thinks every YouTube video is worthless, but Im not convinced.
Percy does not think that every YouTube video is worthless.
What I know is that you are full of misinformation and that your preferred information source is YouTube. You have a proclivity for granting credibility to YouTube sources that not only haven't earned it but certainly don't deserve it.
There are a number of reliable and free news source out there. All the major networks have news sites, then there's the Guardian, Axios, the Associated Press and Politico off the top of my head. It wouldn't hurt you to spend some time at Snopes, either.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 06-26-2023 2:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(8)
Message 365 of 473 (911338)
06-27-2023 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
06-26-2023 2:28 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
I think they are. Am I simply deluded by propaganda? Percy thinks every YouTube video is worthless, but Im not convinced.
As someone who has worked in the software industry for almost 30 years, let me provide you with some insights that I think may help.
Throughout history, there have been numerous individuals who will often make grandiose claims about the nature of society, indicating that 'the end is near'. They will provide rudimentary 'evidence' for those claims and leverage it to further their agenda. This is not a new phenomenon.
What the internet along with video sharing platforms and social media sites have allowed is for those individuals to get a much larger audience than they have had in the past. But the core aspect of how they operate is still the same: make claims that selectively pick data to confirm the claim and make that information available to the masses.
But here is the reason why it can seem more pervasive and give the impression that problems are more serious than they actually are: and that is how the algorithms that are serving you information are designed.
Whether it be youtube, twitter, facebook, etc. All these platforms utilize algorithms to gauge your areas of interest and then serve you additional information regarding those interests. So if you have an interest in classic cars, you will get fed news articles, videos and social media posts that align with those interests. That is done deliberately as it maximizes your viewing and clicks, which is how the revenue is generated.
Unfortunately, this is where the problems arise. If you start going down the rabbit hole of looking into things such as Amercian debt, fiat currencies, the gold standard, etc, the algorithms will then continue to serve up additional articles and videos that align with those interests. What this does is give the impression that there are serious issues in those areas due to the sheer volume of data you are getting. But in the end, its just the same information being regurgitated from different individuals and mediums. What the algorithms are essentially doing is playing into something called 'confirmation bias'. Whereby if you already have made up your mind about something or are leaning in that direction, you will be continually served up information that corroborates those claims, even if most of them don't hold water.
In conclusion, the way you snap yourself out of that cycle is to start performing searches that counter your previous searches. And you will find numerous articles and videos stipulating the exact opposite of what the previous articles/videos might have been stating. The most important thing to recognize is the sources: if you are seeing videos from individuals with little to no background in the areas they are discussing, they probably aren't good sources of truth. If you instead find counter arguments from more reputable sources (universities, legitimate government agencies, scholars, etc) then you are more likely now getting a more accurate representation of things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 06-26-2023 2:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by dwise1, posted 06-27-2023 12:21 PM Diomedes has not replied
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 06-27-2023 6:56 PM Diomedes has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 366 of 473 (911341)
06-27-2023 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Diomedes
06-27-2023 9:19 AM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
In conclusion, the way you snap yourself out of that cycle is to start performing searches that counter your previous searches.
That search can also include critiques of the videos that he's been watching.
For instance, a number of videos by Erika "Gutsick Gibbon" and by Aron Ra and by others ("et alia") critique creationist videos and books (eg, Erika v. "Bones of Contention" -- one of Erika's favorite moves is to refer to the scientific paper referenced by the creationist only to find that they not only had read no more than the abstract, but they only read the very beginning, which is a statement of the problem being addressed, and leave out the rest which says that that problem was solved and how it was solved). And Phat should already be familiar with Mr. Deity's replies to videos from "Prager University" ("My old alma mater ... Go Devils!").
So if there's a video that Phat thinks was persuasive, he should immediately search for responses to that video. Just as I have for decades recommended to creationists repeating PRATTs that they also read the refutations for those PRATTs (though in vain).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Diomedes, posted 06-27-2023 9:19 AM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 06-27-2023 7:09 PM dwise1 has replied
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 06-28-2023 2:31 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 367 of 473 (911349)
06-27-2023 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Diomedes
06-27-2023 9:19 AM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
Diomedes writes:
If you start going down the rabbit hole of looking into things such as Amercian debt, fiat currencies, the gold standard, etc, the algorithms will then continue to serve up additional articles and videos that align with those interests. What this does is give the impression that there are serious issues in those areas due to the sheer volume of data you are getting. But in the end, its just the same information being regurgitated from different individuals and mediums. What the algorithms are essentially doing is playing into something called 'confirmation bias'. Whereby if you already have made up your mind about something or are leaning in that direction, you will be continually served up information that corroborates those claims, even if most of them don't hold water.
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to give me some positive feedback.
Now that I think of it, that explains a lot of my YouTube interactions. I DO suffer from confirmation bias, and like many literalist believers, tie it all into what I've been led fed to believe anyway. I suppose, upon reflection, that it is wise to be skeptical...even of the beliefs and confirmed biases which I already hold.
My essential battle around here is basically being told to utilize critical thinking, throw away prior assumptions and beliefs, and look at life from other angles and perspectives.
Something in me resists that. I have always believed in Jesus and have resisted "throwing Him away" as jar used to coach me to do and which many here at EvC easily did do.
Perhaps, if I were my own counselor and critic, I would ask myself why I am prone to believe that things are getting worse. Your algorithmic explanation is one answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Diomedes, posted 06-27-2023 9:19 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by nwr, posted 06-27-2023 7:18 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 06-27-2023 9:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 371 by Diomedes, posted 06-28-2023 12:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 368 of 473 (911350)
06-27-2023 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by dwise1
06-27-2023 12:21 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
dwise1 writes:
And Phat should already be familiar with Mr. Deity's replies to videos from "Prager University" ("My old alma mater ... Go Devils!").
OK, fair enough. But do you think that Dennis Prager spreads false information? Or is it simply a counter-perspective to progressive thinking?
And to me, Mr. Deity is humorous at best, and inexperienced at worst. After all, how could a Mormon even know Jesus to begin with??? I'm being serious!
Not to suggest that only Calvary Chapel cohorts have an inside track on God's one and only Son.
If Jesus is real, however (which I firmly believe that He is) we need to ask ourselves how He would ever reach a skeptic such as yourself who tossed the Bible aside years ago.
We already know that the peanut gallery suffers from anti-conservative bias, which is perfectly fine.
The problem is that the enemy (that sneaky spirit that God allowed to exist in order to temper us) has also convinced you that Christianity itself is problematic.
I think sometimes that secular humanist critical thinkers conflate conservatism with Christianity and throw the Holy Baby out with the MAGAT bathwater.
In your case, we both can agree that Trump is a potential antichrist candidate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by dwise1, posted 06-27-2023 12:21 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Omnivorous, posted 06-29-2023 8:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 442 by dwise1, posted 08-10-2023 1:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 443 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2023 9:07 AM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 369 of 473 (911351)
06-27-2023 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Phat
06-27-2023 6:56 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
Phat in Message 367 writes:
I suppose, upon reflection, that it is wise to be skeptical...even of the beliefs and confirmed biases which I already hold.
Yes. Many times YES.
I have always believed in Jesus and have resisted "throwing Him away" as jar used to coach me to do and which many here at EvC easily did do.
I haven't been telling you to "throw away Jesus". Believe what you want about that. But at least try to be more skeptical of what people tell you about finance, government policy, politics and all that.
Note that jar still calls himself a Christian. Maybe you are reading too much into his "throw Jesus away". Maybe he is just saying that you should learn to be more self-reliant and less gullible.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity <-- <--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 06-27-2023 6:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 370 of 473 (911352)
06-27-2023 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Phat
06-27-2023 6:56 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
Phat writes:
My essential battle around here is basically being told to utilize critical thinking, throw away prior assumptions and beliefs, and look at life from other angles and perspectives.
People are not suggesting that you throw away your current views. That would be the same as what you already do, blindly following someone else's advice. What people are actually suggesting is that you apply critical thinking to your current views by gathering reliable information and analyzing how well your views accord with it.
Something in me resists that. I have always believed in Jesus and have resisted "throwing Him away" as jar used to coach me to do and which many here at EvC easily did do.
You consistently mischaracterize what people say. I never said or even implied that "every YouTube video is worthless", and jar never urged you to throw Jesus away. If we want you to throw away anything it's your uncritical reliance on bogus and suspect information sources. Your whole approach to life is, "Choose who to trust and then follow their guidance." What you should instead do is listen to information and ideas and then think for yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 06-27-2023 6:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(3)
Message 371 of 473 (911357)
06-28-2023 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Phat
06-27-2023 6:56 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
My essential battle around here is basically being told to utilize critical thinking, throw away prior assumptions and beliefs, and look at life from other angles and perspectives.
That really shouldn't be a battle. It should be something we all strive towards. Using critical thinking not only reduces the likelihood that you will fall victim to confirmation bias, but it also allows you to be open to new ideas and new perspectives. Which is a good thing.
Something in me resists that. I have always believed in Jesus and have resisted "throwing Him away" as jar used to coach me to do and which many here at EvC easily did do.
I myself am not religious. However, I can provide an analogy for you by referencing my mother.
FYI, my mother has a PhD in biochemistry and she was a university professor for many years. Yet concurrently, my mother is religious. She still frequents churches and follows many traditions. The way she reconciles facts with her faith is she has a demarcation between them.
Objective science focuses on the "how". How does it work. What makes it tick. Etc.
Subjective religion focuses on the "why". Why are we here? What is the purpose in life? Etc. One is more technical while the other is more philosophical.
Ultimately, the key is to not attempt to conflate literalist interpretations, especially from the Bible, when trying to draw conclusions. My mother often states that the Bible for her has always been little more than a moral guide. She recognizes that it is just a collection of works written several thousands of years ago by men who had limited understanding of the nature of things. One can argue about morality aspects of the Bible; that is certain. But fundamentally, it isn't a science textbook. At the time it was written, we were in the early iron age, long before the advent of the scientific method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 06-27-2023 6:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 372 of 473 (911358)
06-28-2023 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by dwise1
06-27-2023 12:21 PM


Conservative Vs Liberal: Mr.Deity

Brian Dalton: That's MISTER Deity to You!
I can't hate on Brian Dalton! He seems quite nice. I disagree with his defense of atheism, but why wouldn't I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by dwise1, posted 06-27-2023 12:21 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Theodoric, posted 06-28-2023 2:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 373 of 473 (911359)
06-28-2023 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Phat
06-28-2023 2:31 PM


Bare link?
Really?
Rule 5.
Is it really that hard to follow forum rules?
If you can't follow basic rules, why do you even bother posting here?
ABE
Off-topic too!

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 06-28-2023 2:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(4)
Message 374 of 473 (911364)
06-29-2023 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Phat
06-27-2023 7:09 PM


Re: Are Things The Same As They Have Always Been?
I don't want you to throw out your beliefs about Jesus. But the devil (we'll get back to him) quotes scripture, yes? Your faith is used cynically by hucksters and demagogues to suborn your reason.
If Jesus returned to drive out the money changers, how many churches would stand empty?
What Christian nationalists want now is not religious freedom but an oppressive religious liberty -- so that faith becomes a Get Out of the Law card that permits every harm done to others in the name of God. They are actually religious libertines. How does that differ from the Taliban?
Phat writes:
If Jesus is real, however (which I firmly believe that He is) we need to ask ourselves how He would ever reach a skeptic such as yourself who tossed the Bible aside years ago.
O ye of little faith! According to the Bible, Jesus can meet that challenge. Ask Paul the next time you walk the road to Damascus. You don't need to knock him down yourself.
We already know that the peanut gallery suffers from anti-conservative bias, which is perfectly fine.
No bias is "perfectly fine." Hard-learned, well-evidenced skepticism is not bias.
The problem is that the enemy (that sneaky spirit that God allowed to exist in order to temper us) has also convinced you that Christianity itself is problematic.
Always with the literal demonization: to disagree with a Christian is to be in league with the devil. Thumbing through the New Testament, I failed to find Jesus' charge to scourge demons from the unconverted: possessed pigs, yes; Samaritans, not so much.
Maybe you can help.
I think sometimes that secular humanist critical thinkers conflate conservatism with Christianity and throw the Holy Baby out with the MAGAT bathwater.
If you'd pull your head out of the hateful YouTube echo chambers, maybe you could hear Jesus more clearly. I don't think it's humanists conflating political views with religious ones to the detriment of both.
That would be you.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Phat, posted 06-27-2023 7:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 375 of 473 (911367)
06-30-2023 9:46 AM


Senator Tammy Baldwin
I had the opportunity to meet with and speak with Senator Baldwin yesterday. As always very impressed with her. As we talked about, if a CPAP is all the GQP has on President Biden then there is nothing. The battle will still be tough, but the GOP has no real substance.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Theodoric, posted 06-30-2023 10:34 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 377 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2023 10:41 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 378 by Percy, posted 06-30-2023 10:51 AM Theodoric has replied

  
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