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Author Topic:   Negentropy?????
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 27 (90542)
03-05-2004 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Bound
03-04-2004 7:35 PM


Mr. Bound,
If you breakdown the word "thermodynamics" into the latin roots, you get "movement of heat", thermo=heat; dynamic=movement. The second law, in a round about way, says that a cool object can not cause an increase in temperature of another object. Heat only flows one way, down hill; from a hotter object to a cooler object. However, within that transfer of energy, there is available work that can drive reactions from a lower energy state to a higher energy state. This can be seen in plants where photons from the sun are used to create more energetic carbohydrates from less energetic carbon dioxide and water. The process of carbon dioxide + water ----> carbohydrates is considered negative entropy, or going against the down hill flow of energy. However, negative entropy is possible if work (in this case, photons) is put into the system.
The 2nd law states that all entropy in the universe is going down hill, or positive entropy, and will eventually come to a zero state, where energy is no longer available. Negative entropy events/reactions take advantage of this downhill movement, since work/heat is being transfered. It is kind of like a waterwheel capturing the downhill rush of water in order to do work.
My physics is a little weak, but this is how I remember it so don't take these explanations as definitive. Perhaps we will get lucky and have a physics doc stop by.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-04-2004 7:35 PM Mr. Bound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-05-2004 2:17 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 27 (90616)
03-05-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mr. Bound
03-05-2004 2:17 PM


quote:
Does it basically mean that things can move from disorder to order without breaking the Second Law?
Yes, as long as there is an input of energy/work. Just like it takes energy for you to stack randomly scattered pieces of paper. By ordering the pieces of paper, are you violating the 2nd law? Of course not.
quote:
If so, how the hell do Creationists argue their way around it in regards to their 'Thermodynamics disproves Evolution' nonsense argument?
By relying on the ignorance of its followers. Some people will believe any conclusion as long as it agrees with their presuppositions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-05-2004 2:17 PM Mr. Bound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-05-2004 9:09 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 27 (91175)
03-08-2004 3:43 PM


Just another example of water going uphill. Siphons are able to pull water uphill, although the overall change in elevation is downhill. However, to get water up to a higher elevation, you have to use pumps, or a work input. The fact that we are able to pump water over ridges to irrigate farms seems to fly in the face of the 2LoT, at least according to creationists. They always seem to forget about energy inputs causing decreases in entropy.

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 27 (91428)
03-09-2004 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brad McFall
03-09-2004 3:40 PM


Brad,
Apoptosis is a programmed cell death (as you probably already know). It is an orchestrated event that requires new proteins to be synthesized, or upregulation of already present enzymes. So at first, there is a decrease in entropy as ATP is used to form proteins from disorganized amino acids. However, the end result could be considered a negative entropy event, where proteases become more prevalent as well as damage due to oxidative burst,lysozyme activity, and DNase/RNase activity. "Streaky" DNA (digested DNA) is the gold standard for qualitatively measuring apoptosis, while caspase upregulation measured by ELISA/qPCR is a more quantitative measure. I don't know if this answered your questions or not, but hope this helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Brad McFall, posted 03-09-2004 3:40 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
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