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Author
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Topic: Free will vs Omniscience
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ringo
Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1426 of 1444 (897532)
09-07-2022 1:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 1416 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:19 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: You would rather blame Him (or Conservative Followers) for the bad things and give you and your fellow humans credit for the good things!
I don't see why we shouldn't take credit for the good things we have accomplished. 
Phat writes: In fact, most liberal humanists blame and will blame the followers for the coming bad things which I predict will happen.
More than that, we will try to prevent them.
Phat writes: He made you a skeptic...
Thinking made me a skeptic. And you keep saying "skeptic" as if it was a bad thing. Why do you do that?
Phat writes: ... so go give away spare change and live your life as best as you can.
There you go again, mocking what Jesus said.
Phat writes: I'll try my best to emulate your behavior in that way while being careful not to poison my mind with your conclusions regarding God's existence!
That's an odd take on "by their fruits ye shall know them". In your addled mind, are my fruits something to be emulated or something poisonous?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1416 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:19 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1427 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 1:42 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 1427 of 1444 (897535)
09-07-2022 1:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 1426 by ringo
09-07-2022 1:01 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes: In your addled mind, are my fruits something to be emulated or something poisonous? Your fruits are fine. You obey the message rather than the messenger whom you believe is a mythic character. I would do well to try and give as much spare change as you do, but I refuse to enable alcoholics and perpetual panhandlers. The mythic character and I are engaged in serious discussions regarding my fruits. I do listen occasionally. Add By Edit: In fact, most liberal humanists blame and will blame Conservative Christian followers for the coming bad things which I predict will happen.
ringo writes: More than that, we will try to prevent them. Some of your methods will cause more harm than good. Take digital currency for example. Are you in favor of the Federal Reserve knowing the net worth of every private citizen? If you say yes, it will confirm your ignorance. Edited by Phat, .
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1426 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 1:01 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1428 by ringo, posted 09-08-2022 11:51 AM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1428 of 1444 (897579)
09-08-2022 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 1427 by Phat
09-07-2022 1:42 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: Your fruits are fine.
Then why are you worried about "poisoning your mind" with my conclusions?
Phat writes: I refuse to enable alcoholics and perpetual panhandlers.
It isn't about enabling. That's just a copout, an excuse to do nothing. They're going to be enabled, if not by you then by somebody else. It's about dignity. If somebody asks me for help, who am I to decide whether he really, really, really needs help? I don't buy that 12-step bullshit about how "you can't do it yourself". On the contrary, they HAVE to do it themselves. No matter what help and encouragement they get, they still have to make the final decision themselves. So I give them the dignity of allowing them to make the decision with no interference from me.
Phat writes: Are you in favor of the Federal Reserve knowing the net worth of every private citizen?
I don't know (or care) about the Federal Reserve but the IRS should definitely know the net worth of every citizen. (I don't know why you say "private" citizen.) How else are they going to know if the citizen is paying his fair share? Your far-right handlers don't want the IRS to prevent them from stealing from YOU, but you keep enabling them.
Phat writes: If you say yes, it will confirm your ignorance.
How so? (I'm going to break my own rule and predict that you won't answer.)
Phat writes: Some of your methods will cause more harm than good.
Collecting income tax is not "my method". It's society's method. So go ahead and give sone actual examples of "my methods" and how they do more harm than good.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1427 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 1:42 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1429 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 12:02 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 1429 of 1444 (897580)
09-08-2022 12:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 1428 by ringo
09-08-2022 11:51 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes: I don't know (or care) about the Federal Reserve but the IRS should definitely know the net worth of every citizen. (I don't know why you say "private" citizen.) How else are they going to know if the citizen is paying his fair share? The government should not be so up in our business. Thats why I say "private citizen". The IRS should not be authoritarians. They already have the information we provide them at our jobs. They have no right to know what I have buried in my backyard! Conservatives in general want less government. Liberals seem to want more. Which is what makes you authoritarians. If Jesus cant make me give it all up, the government sure won't! And by the way, I'm fully legal. I just don't like nosy IRS agents. As an example, if someone owns gold or silver, they can legally sell under a certain dollar amount at a time and remain off the books. Digital currency will change that. The liberals are obsessed with this whole "fair share" thing. Who the hell are you to tell me what's fair? I'll pay what I'm required to pay and not what *YOU* think I should pay. Period. Your idea of Utopia suggests a police state where everyone is forced to distribute their income. Something even Jesus wouldn't approve of.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1428 by ringo, posted 09-08-2022 11:51 AM | | ringo has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6484 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 9.1
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Message 1430 of 1444 (897581)
09-08-2022 12:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 1429 by Phat
09-08-2022 12:02 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Conservatives in general want less government. Liberals seem to want more. That's not what I see. It looks to me as if the conservatives want to control what books are in the libraries, they want to control the school curriculum, they want to control who you can befriend.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1429 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 12:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1431 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 12:18 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 1431 of 1444 (897582)
09-08-2022 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 1430 by nwr
09-08-2022 12:15 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
you have a point. There are extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. I don't want the world-at-large to become as divisive and polarized as US politics now is.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1430 by nwr, posted 09-08-2022 12:15 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1432 of 1444 (897587)
09-08-2022 1:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 1429 by Phat
09-08-2022 12:02 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: The IRS should not be authoritarians. They already have the information we provide them at our jobs. They have no right to know what I have buried in my backyard!
Sure they do. That's how they got Al Capone.
Phat writes: If Jesus cant make me give it all up, the government sure won't!
As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up. Stop talking like a one of those militia idiots. (Is that a cache of guns in your back yard?)
Phat writes: And by the way, I'm fully legal. I just don't like nosy IRS agents.
You're such a slave to right-wing propaganda. If you're legal, the IRS are on your side, trying to collect from the rich bastards, like Trump, who are NOT legal.
Phat writes: As an example, if someone owns gold....
In your posts, I always stop reading at "gold". You know nothing about it.
Phat writes: The liberals are obsessed with this whole "fair share" thing. Who the hell are you to tell me what's fair?
Who are YOU decide all by your little self what's fair? It's up to society as a whole.
Phat writes: I'll pay what I'm required to pay and not what *YOU* think I should pay. Period.
I think you should pay what you're required to pay. Period. When have I ever given you reason to think otherwise?
Phat writes: Your idea of Utopia...
I have no idea of Utopia.
Phat writes: ... suggests a police state where everyone is forced to distribute their income.
Just for once, for a change, would you THINK before you blather such nonsense? First, where have I EVER suggested anything resembling a police state? Second, EVERY nation "forces" its citizens to distribute their income. Ever hear of taxes? Third, YOU are the beneficiary of much of that distribution. Ever go to a public school? Ever drive on a public road? Ever hear of a Fire Department or a Police Department or an Army or a Navy or an Air Force? In your sheer bone-headed, stupidity, do you want to get rid of all of those?
Phat writes: Something even Jesus wouldn't approve of.
Well, the Jews had public schules and the Romans had public roads - and Jesus told the people to pay their taxes, so clearly He DID approve. Pull your head out of your ass.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1429 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 12:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1433 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:31 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 1433 of 1444 (902318)
11-21-2022 3:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 1432 by ringo
09-08-2022 1:13 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes: Just for once, for a change, would you THINK before you blather such nonsense? Lets take this over here.
I think you should pay what you're required to pay. Period. When have I ever given you a reason to think otherwise? The issue is that you think that an elected government has every right to collect what it needs no matter what the amount for the benefit of the meth addict under the bridge as well as the hard-working middle-class guy that appreciates libraries, armies, and fire departments. I see it day after day. The guy under the bridge trashes public restrooms, has no respect for himself or others, and feeds his addiction from guys like you that give him a few dollars when he looks all forlorn with a sign. My point is not to sound like a greedy entitled asshole. My point is that you can't simply legislate financial help and expect things to change. You (we) need more than that.
As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up. I like how you sound so authoritarian when it suits you. You will find a civil war instead. The populists and their "clown cars" are warming up in the wings. 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1432 by ringo, posted 09-08-2022 1:13 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1434 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 11:34 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1434 of 1444 (902362)
11-22-2022 11:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 1433 by Phat
11-21-2022 3:31 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes: The issue is that you think that an elected government has every right to collect what it needs no matter what the amount for the benefit of the meth addict under the bridge as well as the hard-working middle-class guy that appreciates libraries, armies, and fire departments
Why is that even an issue? Yes, the government has every right (and duty) to collect what it needs for libraries, armies and fire departments. We can't just let the meth addicts burn; the fire might spread next door to the hard-working middle-class guy. We can't just let your buddy Putin invade the country because it will effect the hard-working middle-class guy along with the meth addict. We're all in the same boat.
Phat writes: The guy under the bridge trashes public restrooms, has no respect for himself or others, and feeds his addiction from guys like you that give him a few dollars when he looks all forlorn with a sign.
I have explained it to you many, many, many times before. The meth dealer shops at your store. The spare change I give circulates. The dollar i give to the meth addict that he gives to his dealer, that he gives to your store is no different from the dollar that YOU spend on too much sugar.
Phat writes: My point is that you can't simply legislate financial help and expect things to change.
Sure we can. We know that things DO change. My favorite aunt's husband died, leaving her with five small children. She went on welfare for a while and eventually went back to work. The children all grew up to be productive members of society - and so did their children. How can you even suggest that that legislated financial help didn't change anything?
Phat writes: You (we) need more than that.
But you're not suggesting more. You're suggesting less. Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? They use garbage trucks to scoop up "undesirables". Is that the "more" you have in mind?
Phat writes: ringo writes: As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up.
I like how you sound so authoritarian when it suits you.
What's "authoritarian" about it? I'm just predicting that your bluster won't come to anything. They'll give you the bill and you'll pay. (Unless you hide your money away. But you said you'd never do anything illegal.)
Phat writes: You will find a civil war instead.
I don't know what insane corner of your mind that came from.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1433 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:31 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1435 by Theodoric, posted 11-22-2022 11:49 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 1435 of 1444 (902363)
11-22-2022 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 1434 by ringo
11-22-2022 11:34 AM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
And now prepare for him to claim that the government caused the implosion of cryptocurrencies. I love listening to a guy that knows absolutely nothing about economics, monetary policy, and currency spout about the subjects. It does no good to explain reality to him because he will go on youtube and listen to another shark that will fill his head with crap. I am sure his crypto and gold are doing well. Lol. Edited by Theodoric, : wording
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1434 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 11:34 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1439 by Phat, posted 08-11-2023 2:29 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 1436 of 1444 (912028)
08-10-2023 11:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 520 by Tangle
07-07-2016 7:10 PM
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Re: Literary Character or Literal Character?
Tangle writes: I did believe - heart and soul, the whole 10 yards. Then suddenly realized it was a pile of horse manure from top to bottom. Anti-road to Damascus moment. I wouldnt get so dramatic. You believed stories when you were younger and you believed in the people who taught you. Its likely that you never actually met God. (I am not to judge, however. Merely to speculate)
Now why would God do that if it meant my damnation? You might be finished with "God" once reason and rational thought (and perhaps other people in whom to trust) entered your life but it is my belief that He is not finished with you. It is not my job to convince you. It is my job to improve my behavior and my actions in life since I claim to represent being a believer.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 520 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2016 7:10 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1437 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2023 2:58 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9582 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 6.6
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Message 1437 of 1444 (912041)
08-10-2023 2:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 1436 by Phat
08-10-2023 11:05 AM
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Re: Literary Character or Literal Character?
Phat writes: Its likely that you never actually met God. Likely? It's an absolute fucking certainty! But I tell you straight, I thought I had. Just like you.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1436 by Phat, posted 08-10-2023 11:05 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1438 by Phat, posted 08-11-2023 2:25 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Message 1438 of 1444 (912063)
08-11-2023 2:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 1437 by Tangle
08-10-2023 2:58 PM
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Re: Literary Character or Literal Character?
Nope. Not just like me. I have also thought I had until I did.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1437 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2023 2:58 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1441 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2023 4:01 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Theo writes: It does no good to explain reality to him... Why do you imagine yourself a teacher of reality? How much do you really know? Some things dont have facts. Some things can only be subjective. Do you simply ignore them? I say that your idea of reality is shaped by your peers, what you listen to, who you listen to, and what the evidence shows. And sometimes you have no evidence. Again, what do you conclude? And why do you feel that I am incapable of reason?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1440 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2023 2:46 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 1440 of 1444 (912066)
08-11-2023 2:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 1439 by Phat
08-11-2023 2:29 PM
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Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Some things can only be subjective.
examples please.
I say that your idea of reality is shaped by your peers, what you listen to, who you listen to
What you say is irrelevant.
And sometimes you have no evidence
Until there is evidence there is probably no reason to consider.
And why do you feel that I am incapable of reason?
Have I stated this?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1439 by Phat, posted 08-11-2023 2:29 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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