Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 53 (9179 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,130 Year: 5,387/9,624 Month: 412/323 Week: 52/204 Day: 28/24 Hour: 0/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9537
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 361 of 472 (912772)
09-30-2023 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by candle2
09-30-2023 9:37 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
Candle, GDR believes what he believes because he's not insane enough to believe what you believe. He prefers a different story. There are lots of stories.
One morning, Thor woke up and found that his mighty hammer, Mjolnir, was missing. He searched everywhere in his hall, but he could not find it. He was furious and suspected that someone had stolen it. He called his loyal servant, Thjalfi, and asked him to help him find his hammer.
They went to the palace of Freyja, the goddess of love and beauty, and asked her if she had seen Mjolnir. Freyja said that she had not, but she offered to lend Thor her feather cloak, which could make him fly like a bird. Thor thanked her and put on the cloak. He flew across the nine worlds, looking for his hammer, but he could not find it anywhere.
He returned to Asgard, the home of the gods, and met Loki, the trickster god. Loki asked him what was wrong, and Thor told him that his hammer had been stolen. Loki said that he knew who had taken it: it was Thrym, the king of the frost giants. He had hidden Mjolnir in his hall in Jotunheim, the land of the giants, and he would only give it back if Freyja agreed to marry him.
Thor was outraged and said that he would never let Freyja marry a giant. He asked Loki to help him get his hammer back. Loki agreed and said that he had a plan. He put on Freyja’s feather cloak and flew to Jotunheim. He found Thrym in his hall, surrounded by his giant kin.
Loki greeted Thrym and said that he had come as Freyja’s messenger. He said that Freyja had accepted Thrym’s proposal and was willing to marry him, but only if he gave her Mjolnir as a bridal gift. Thrym was overjoyed and said that he would do so. He ordered his servants to bring Mjolnir and place it on Freyja’s lap.
Loki smiled and said that he would go back to Asgard and bring Freyja to Jotunheim for the wedding. He flew away with Mjolnir in his hands. He met Thor on the way and gave him his hammer back. Thor was delighted and thanked Loki for his cleverness.
They returned to Asgard and told Freyja what had happened. Freyja was relieved and glad that she did not have to marry Thrym. She took back her feather cloak from Loki and thanked him for his help.
Meanwhile, Thrym waited for Freyja in his hall, but she never came. He realized that he had been tricked by Loki and became angry. He swore revenge on Thor and Loki for stealing his bride and his hammer.
But Thor was ready for him. He wielded Mjolnir and struck down Thrym and his giant kin with thunder and lightning. He reclaimed his honor and his hammer, and no one dared to steal it again.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 9:37 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 11:38 AM Tangle has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 362 of 472 (912776)
09-30-2023 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by AZPaul3
09-29-2023 6:38 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
AZP, do you honestly belief that humans are basically
animals much like dogs, cats, hippos, etc...?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2023 6:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by AZPaul3, posted 09-30-2023 12:12 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 363 of 472 (912777)
09-30-2023 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Tangle
09-30-2023 10:05 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
Tangle, it doesn't bother me in the least that you believe
in Thor, or Loki, or the tooth fairy. If they are your gods, so
be it.
I won't criticize you for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Tangle, posted 09-30-2023 10:05 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Percy, posted 09-30-2023 1:05 PM candle2 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8612
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 364 of 472 (912778)
09-30-2023 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by candle2
09-30-2023 11:34 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
AZP, do you honestly belief that humans are basically
animals much like dogs, cats, hippos, etc...?
... and fish, octopus, arachnids, crabs ...
Animalia is a rather diverse lot, not just mammals.
I don't know how basically you want to get but humans are basically bacteria that got smart. Some would say too smart.
But, yes, all the evidence of reality we do have makes us but another animal. Does that bother you?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 11:34 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22682
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 365 of 472 (912780)
09-30-2023 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by candle2
09-30-2023 11:38 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
candle2 writes:
Tangle, it doesn't bother me in the least that you believe
in Thor, or Loki, or the tooth fairy. If they are your gods, so
be it.
I won't criticize you for it.
I think if you reread for comprehension this time that you'll find Tangle did not profess belief in anything as a god, but since you brought it up, what are the criteria for criticism for belief in any god?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 11:38 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:19 PM Percy has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 366 of 472 (912781)
09-30-2023 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by AZPaul3
09-30-2023 12:12 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
AZ, do you know that cats and other animals kill for fun.
Sharks, for one, eat smaller animals of their own species.
A number of animals regularly engage in cannibalism,
which includes mothers eating their own.
Why would atheists and evolutionists expect humans to
be any different. Aren't we just animals?
How come A&E don't call cats, sharks, etc... serial killers?
If we are all just animals, who will evolve into something
else in a million years, why not just do what Aleister
Crowley, the great Satanist, advised: "do what thou wilt?"
If we are just animals, it would be to our benefit to rid the
world of three quarters of us. There would be less
competition for the available resources.
Why not get rid of the sick and aged, as well as those with
low IQ's? They take more than they give.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by AZPaul3, posted 09-30-2023 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by AZPaul3, posted 09-30-2023 6:38 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 372 by dwise1, posted 10-01-2023 1:31 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 367 of 472 (912782)
09-30-2023 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Percy
09-30-2023 1:05 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Percy, if you would learn to read between the lines, you
would see that I was toying with him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Percy, posted 09-30-2023 1:05 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Tangle, posted 09-30-2023 1:36 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 373 by Percy, posted 10-01-2023 3:36 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9537
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 368 of 472 (912783)
09-30-2023 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by candle2
09-30-2023 1:19 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
candle the jolly jester writes:
Percy, if you would learn to read between the lines, you would see that I was toying with him.
Gosh, what a wag! It's been ages since I've been toyed with. How I laughed!
Who said right-wing fundamentalist loonies have no sense of humour?
How are you getting on with that question I asked you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:19 PM candle2 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 369 of 472 (912784)
09-30-2023 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Tangle
09-30-2023 3:34 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
Tangle writes:
Sure it a story. Well actually it's an edited collection of mythologies. We have literally millions of stories with beginnings, middles and ends that give us meaning. We like stories.
I can't see that you can classify everything in the Bible as mythological. That however is not an argument that has anything to do with the accuracy of Biblical accounts.
However, a mythology can lead us to truth in a methodical way. I'd suggest that this is true in the Genesis accounts regarding creation.
Also Tolkien coined the term "true mythology" in regards to the resurrection of Jesus. Here is an account of that along with Lewis's view.
Tolkien and Lewis on true mythology
Tangle writes:
But we don't like feeling that we're not special, that this is all there is and that when we die that it, over. So we make up stories to make us feel better and form institutions and power structures around them. We've done this forever; all those different gods, all those different stories, all those religions and priests. And no-one can agree on any of them.

You can't even agree on the Jesus story, the Jews, the Muslims and the Christians all have totally different stories. Isn't that proof of a myth in itself?
Certainly being a Christian shouldn't make anyone feel special, but clearly it appears that it often does. I can't speak for other religions but frankly the same can be said for atheists who can't be fooled by all this religious nonsense.
Life is it's own meaning; you don't need this god thing to give it meaning.
Sure we can find meaning in our lives whether it being about making money, number of sexual partners or the love of having power over others, along with some positive things like being a good parent or to being admired for our altruistic efforts.
However in the end if civilization is destined for oblivion one way or another then all we've done is part of that. There is just nothingness. There is no hope. The Christian story does give hope and I contend that there is a rational reason to believe that hope will be realized, and that there is an external purpose and meaning for human existence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Tangle, posted 09-30-2023 3:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Tangle, posted 09-30-2023 5:48 PM GDR has replied
 Message 375 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2023 8:20 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9537
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 370 of 472 (912785)
09-30-2023 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by GDR
09-30-2023 5:18 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
GDR writes:
I can't see that you can classify everything in the Bible as mythological. That however is not an argument that has anything to do with the accuracy of Biblical accounts.
​Generally speaking, if something is myth, it ain't accurate.
However in the end if civilization is destined for oblivion one way or another then all we've done is part of that. There is just nothingness. There is no hope. The Christian story does give hope and I contend that there is a rational reason to believe that hope will be realized, and that there is an external purpose and meaning for human existence.
Stories give hope. But they're inventions - they're not real. There is no rational reason behind your belief, it's just a hope for something other than what is. The sooner we give up this nonsense and deal with the reality of life and grow up, the sooner we can improve our lives here. This is all we have and that's fine.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by GDR, posted 09-30-2023 5:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 10-02-2023 2:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8612
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 371 of 472 (912786)
09-30-2023 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by candle2
09-30-2023 1:18 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
AZ, do you know that cats and other animals kill for fun.
I've seen that claim. I don't know about fun but my cats sometimes bring me little presents of love.
Sharks, for one, eat smaller animals of their own species.

A number of animals regularly engage in cannibalism,
which includes mothers eating their own.
Apparently not a lot of intellectual empathy in those samples.
Why would atheists and evolutionists expect humans to
be any different.
We don't. Who says otherwise?
Aren't we just animals?
As stated, yes.
How come A&E don't call cats, sharks, etc... serial killers?
A number of reasons. Social constructs all.
That appellation seems to be reserved for describing some humans and our gods. Though I seem to recall a bengal tiger in 1903 being so labeled after its reign of hundreds of dead. Just didn't like humans. No, no, this gal really hated us. Bad Kitty
And, for most part, animals are not deemed sufficiently morally aware to completely overcome instinct. We acknowledge their drive in the face of instinct, we forgive them our own hateful thoughts, then we shoot them dead for revenge anyway and go hunt their families for sport.
For most of human history we did this with humans, too. Not the forgiving part but the hunting and shooting part. We are not yet removed from the religious violence of the last few centuries.
If we are all just animals, who will evolve into something
else in a million years, why not just do what Aleister
Crowley, the great Satanist, advised: "do what thou wilt?"
Excellent advice. For the vast majority of people that means setting up a fruitful, productive, pain-free life with friends.
Your Satan has the right idea.
If we are just animals, it would be to our benefit to rid the
world of three quarters of us. There would be less
competition for the available resources.
Yes, it would be to our benefit ("our" being those not slaughtered, incinerated, starved). Thank you for that reminder, Comrade Joseph. We'll give your religious recommendations to the death committees in the next plenary session.
Why not get rid of the sick and aged, as well as those with
low IQ's? They take more than they give.
We could. I know you religionists try that from time to time, like now in Afghanistan, Rwanda.
But there is a big problem taking over big parts of the world. Secular Humanism. You're not allowed to do that anymore.
Yes, Candle2, you are a human: a population of animals evolved on and presently ravaging, raping and ruining the Earth.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:18 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by candle2, posted 10-02-2023 9:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 372 of 472 (912795)
10-01-2023 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by candle2
09-30-2023 1:18 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Why would atheists and evolutionists expect humans to
be any different. Aren't we just animals?
. . .
If we are just animals, it would be to our benefit to rid the
world of three quarters of us. There would be less
competition for the available resources.

Why not get rid of the sick and aged, as well as those with
low IQ's? They take more than they give.
OK, so what's your point? So far it looks like standard run-of-the-mill fundamentalist bullshit.
Yes, we are animals. So what?
Are you trying to deny that we are animals? If so, then what are we? Vegetable?
Mineral? What?
Obviously we are animals. And just as obviously we are Chordata (we have a spinal cord). And Tetrapoda (our bodies have four limbs and bilateral symmetry). And mammals. And primates. And Hominidae. And Homininae. And Hominini. And Homo (though sole surviving species to our knowledge).
If you want to deny that we are animals, then please present your alternative.
 
But you mentioned "just animals". What is that supposed to mean? That only we matter, are special and superior? BTW, you do realize that the Bible is just a book. See how denigrating that kind of wording is?
Of course we like to think we are special, like in the Irish proverb:
quote:
Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn fhéin.
There's no sore bum like your own sore bum.

If we are all just animals, who will evolve into something
else in a million years, why not just do what Aleister
Crowley, the great Satanist, advised: "do what thou wilt?"
Reading between the lines (since you never say what you really mean), that is that fundie old moldy rotten chestnut: "If you teach children that they're just animals, then what else can they do but to act like animals!"
But what does that even mean? I feel quite sure of what you think it means, but what you think is completely divorced from reality.
Yes, animals do indeed behave like animals. Like their specific species of animal. To borrow from a younger generation, way after my time: Ya THINK?"
Barring any mal-imprinting (eg, Koko, given the task of sorting photographs into two piles: human and non-human (more specifically gorilla types as I seem to recall), would put her own photo in the Human pile and her parents' photos in the Gorilla pile):
  • Dogs behave like dogs.
  • Cats behave like cats.
  • Frogs behave like frogs.
  • Birds behave like birds (different species of bird behaving like itself though differently from the other species of bird).
  • Snakes behave like snakes (again, different species of snake behaving after its own species, but differently from other snakes).
  • Pigs behave like pigs.
  • Fish behave like fish (and yet again, different species of fish will behave after its own species, but in ways that are very different than in other fish).
And Homo sapiens sapiens behave like Homo sapiens sapiens. Ya THINK?
 
We call it "human nature", an idea that can be ported to all other species with very little difficulty.
So, do we Homo sapiens sapiens behave like animals? Yes we do! What kind of animals? Homo sapiens sapiens! Ya THINK?
Now, is human nature a pretty thing? Not really. Could we do better? We do try, but it's not easy.
Ironically, while religion may aspire to help us behave better, it fails miserably. Instead, much more often religion serves to rationalize bad behavior and even promotes the commission of atrocities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:18 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22682
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 373 of 472 (912801)
10-01-2023 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by candle2
09-30-2023 1:19 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
candle2 writes:
Percy, if you would learn to read between the lines, you
would see that I was toying with him.
Is that really what you thought you were doing?
What about that question I asked you, about the criteria for criticism of any religion?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:19 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22682
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 374 of 472 (912802)
10-01-2023 3:40 PM


Is this just turning into a Choosing a faith annex?
--Percy

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 375 of 472 (912808)
10-01-2023 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by GDR
09-30-2023 5:18 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
I can't see that you can classify everything in the Bible as mythological. \
Well, it isn't historical so what else would you call it?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by GDR, posted 09-30-2023 5:18 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-01-2023 9:09 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 377 by Percy, posted 10-02-2023 9:34 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024