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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1 of 378 (913001)
10-08-2023 9:29 AM


After an initial attack by the Hamas Palestinian militants, Israel has officially declared war for the first time since 1973. I can't describe it any better than you can read it, but wanted a topic on a war in the early stages which likely moves the atomic scientist's doomsday clock even closer to midnight. Comments?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AZPaul3, posted 10-08-2023 9:36 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3 of 378 (913014)
10-08-2023 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AZPaul3
10-08-2023 9:36 AM


Christian Apologetics and Israel
In the netherworld of Christian Apologetics, a war between Russia and Israel has been talked about for many years.
You are right in that Russia is behind this. It has been prophesied and is now happening.
Biblical References:
Ezekiel 38:1-39:16,Daniel 11:40-45 NKJV

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AZPaul3, posted 10-08-2023 9:36 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2023 4:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 10-08-2023 9:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 22 by Dredge, posted 10-13-2023 12:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 6 of 378 (913026)
10-09-2023 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
10-08-2023 9:06 PM


Re: Christian Apologetics and Israel
I would expect such mocking tomfoolery out of you...but this war is worse than Ukraine ever hoped to be. A lot depends on the US response...but I don't expect any peace deals to be brokered anytime soon.
A Summary from the BBC::
  • Israel's defence minister orders a "complete siege" of the Gaza Strip, two days after shock attacks in Israel left hundreds of civilians dead
  • Rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza continue, with explosions heard in Jerusalem
  • Food, fuel, electricity, and water supplies from Israel are being cut, ministers say
  • Israel says it has regained control of its communities near Gaza - but some militants remain active
  • More than 700 people have been killed in Israel since Hamas launched its attacks on Saturday morning, including 260 at a music festival
  • Israeli says dozens of people have been kidnapped in the attacks - most have been taken into Gaza
  • More than 500 people have died in Gaza, after Israel launched massive retaliatory air strikes
  • Some of the rocket attacks have been so precise that it is believed that only one of two superpowers must be behind them and that means Vladimir Putin. Israel is a strong military power and is believed to have at least 100 nuclear weapons, but it is a small country and this war is believed to be in its early stages---more combatants may come against them. Two other points that have come under question include the equipment left behind in Afghanistan, estimated to be close to 50 billion dollars worth and the money that was paid to Iran. I don't know much about that yet and am brushing up on my studies. Israel is not ignorant of Iran's duplicity and there may be some consequences for Iran planned. So far, however, no solid evidence of Iran's involvement has been found.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 9 of 378 (913090)
    10-11-2023 1:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
    10-10-2023 2:19 PM


    It All Started With the Nakba
    I had to do some homework to formulate this post. In order to do my homework, I went to a neutral source of information: Aljazeera. (Of course, I use the term "neutral" loosely in that I believe that in this modern day and age, all news is a matter of subjective truth.) One man's power is another man's security. That being said, it appears that British Zionism had the support of some special interests who wanted to control the Suez Canal and needed a friendly power in the region.( Balfour Declaration and all that) It appears that the justification used was that Israel had the land before the Palestinians did. Based on that logic, the American Indians could justifiably claim my city and boot me out. If only they had the power.
    And get this! Vladimir Putin, whose armies have killed thousands of civilians, suddenly is "concerned" about civilian casualties in the Middle East! I don't like that vibe!
    The United States has less power than we think we do, and Putin is far from finished. He is recruiting sympathetic rogue states to support his efforts at a globalist shift in the balance of power.
    The fight will come our way, and it won't be fun. I really hope that World War III doesn't develop from all this. How is my country going to fix my social security and prevent inflation when the situations in the world require our help??

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Percy, posted 10-10-2023 2:19 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by sensei, posted 10-11-2023 4:25 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 11 of 378 (913113)
    10-11-2023 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by sensei
    10-11-2023 4:25 AM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    A lot depends on the Israeli response over the next month. BBC and Al-Jazeera are where I get my information, and the BBC says that Israel is now united as a nation (much as the United States was after 9-11) and no nation or body of nations can force them to stop at this point. One soldier stated his feelings that Israel is a people of principles. An article on the BBC, Israelis, united in shock, rally behind war to punish Hamas journaled two contrasting views from the Israeli people. In the first quote,
    BBC:
    A middle-aged couple had managed to meet up with their son, a young man of around 20 who is doing his compulsory military service. The mother handed over a jar of home-made pickles.
    The father said: "We've told him to concentrate on what he has to do, and not to think too hard about friends who've been hurt and killed."
    I respect that father. Again, in reference to 9-11, our duty as a nation was not to focus on a small group of terrorists and equate them with the entire Arab world. On the other hand, in another quote from the Israeli Minister of Defense,
    BBC:
    "We're fighting animals," he says, "and we'll act accordingly." Food, water and power supplies to Gaza are being cut.
    This sums up much of the psychology of war. After 9-11, the United States took the opportunity to ramp up its military and attack Afghanistan. According to Wikipedia,
    Wiki:
    The hijackers in the September 11 attacks were 19 men affiliated with the Islamist jihadist organization al-Qaeda. They hailed from four countries; 15 of them were citizens of Saudi Arabia, two were from the United Arab Emirates, one was from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.
    None were from Afghanistan.
    So we "got" Bin Laden. Big deal.
    AZPaul3 has stated that religion is a great evil that must be vanquished from the world before there is true peace.
    Though I mock him for being an antitheist and yet a pagan, the irony of situations such as this is that God religion is involved.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 12:20 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 13 of 378 (913119)
    10-11-2023 2:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
    10-11-2023 12:20 PM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    I'm glad that you at least admitted that humans---not religion was the problem.
    There is a spiritual conflict within humans. You seem to think that booting religion and belief in God out of our heads will absolve that conflict

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 12:20 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2023 2:53 PM Phat has replied
     Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 5:39 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 15 of 378 (913121)
    10-11-2023 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
    10-11-2023 2:53 PM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    I'm glad you chimed in. You always joke that it is believers who always forecast "doom doom we are all doomed".
    AZ Antitheist is not a believer and yet pessimistically accepts humans at face value.
    What makes you an optimist?

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 18 of 378 (913124)
    10-11-2023 9:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
    10-11-2023 5:39 PM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    Hypothetically, what would you do if the majik was real? How would you respond if "the Priest" was beyond those stars that made you think?
    Would you then be angry at such a "Priest" for allowing evil?
    Or would you simply go about your business, convinced that you had to be delusional and that there was no logical way the hypothesis could be real?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2023 5:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 19 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2023 11:41 PM Phat has replied
     Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 10-12-2023 12:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 21 of 378 (913132)
    10-13-2023 12:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by dwise1
    10-11-2023 11:41 PM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    Israel,stunned by an attack that their elite intelligence failed to see coming, is bound and determined to eliminate Hamas as a legitimate government and leave no room for negotiation.
    dwise1 writes:
    Hamas' attacks could have been to undermine negotiations for cooperation between Israel and Arab countries (I recall mention of Saudi Arabia) by forcing Israel into retaliatory actions that could turn into a religious matter. He pointed out that religious matters leave no room for compromise.
    In this case, religion need not be invoked in order to justify the Israeli response. Hamas started this particular battle. It was they who were yelling Allahu Akbar (God is Great) as they prepared to slaughter as many people as they could. The Israelis interviewed are angry to be sure but the explanation is that Israel is a country of basic principles whereas Hamas showed themselves to be little more than animals. Critics might point out, however, that the attack was too sophisticated for animals to carry out and that the elite Mossad was fooled.
    Neither side is rational, but Israel currently has the moral high ground. (Certainly, the UN does not!)
    Israel wants 1.1 million Gazans to move in next 24 hours, says UN
    BBC:
    Summary
  • The UN says it has been told by Israel that everyone in north Gaza should relocate to the south in the next 24 hours
  • The area includes densely populated Gaza City and will affect about 1.1 million people - around half of the Gaza Strip's population
  • The UN says it is "impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences" and has called on Israel to rescind evacuation orders
  • The warning comes as Israel is expected to launch a ground offensive into Gaza to root out militant group Hamas
  • Hamas kidnapped at least 150 people and took them into Gaza during deadly attacks on Israel at the weekend that killed 1,300 people
  • More than 1,400 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched retaliatory air strikes, Palestinian health officials say
  • The bombardment comes amid a total blockade. Israel says it won't lift the restrictions unless Hamas frees all hostages
  • Aid agencies say Gaza is facing a "dire" situation with food and water quickly running out and 50,000 pregnant women unable to access essential services
  • The UN is seemingly NOT Pro Israel and some suggest that the global consensus leans more the other way.
    Apart from the charismaniacs who are strongly pro-Israel (and pro-Trump) the US likely will allow the Israeli response to continue up to a point. When Israel first became a nation, and still currently in the Hamas charter is the edict to eliminate Israel totally. In contrast, Israel is giving the Palestinians a way out. Ditch Hamas and let them pay for their crime.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    (1)
    Message 24 of 378 (913138)
    10-13-2023 11:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
    10-13-2023 9:09 AM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    Percy writes:
    I don't know what the consensus at the UN is, but Palestinians in Israel are treated in a manner not all that dissimilar from black Americans living under Jim Crow laws and southern prejudice. I'm sure we all have wonderfully warm feelings for the Israelis who cannot even treat Palestinians as if they were human.
    I think it's more similar to the way the American Indians were treated. Imagine if the UN told the U.S. that they were giving the Indians New Hampshire and that everyone had to move to make way for them. Would anyone in New Hampshire object?
    ‚Äč

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 26 of 378 (913144)
    10-13-2023 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
    10-13-2023 3:02 PM


    Follow The Money
    Yes. I have no doubt that Putin is somehow involved. Perhaps through his ally Iran.
    It has been established that Biden's 6.5 billion dollar repayment to Iran did NOT get spent on arming Hamas. That leaves Putin and his bankroll. Or Iran. Or both.
    We humans are our own worst enemy at times. Hopefully, Israel won't enrage the rest of the Islamic world by overreacting to what is an admittedly gruesome attack.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2023 3:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by DrJones*, posted 10-13-2023 8:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    (1)
    Message 28 of 378 (913149)
    10-14-2023 7:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by DrJones*
    10-13-2023 8:18 PM


    Re: Follow The Money
    It was an allowed release of funds that the West controlled through sanctions. It was a concession. S. Korea is our ally...not Irans. Where did you earn your doctorate? Woke University??
    Even Harvard is so liberal that it is on Palestines side even after this atrocious attack.
    So is BLM.
    As Percy said, neither side is moral at this point.
    BBC:
    Israel's leaders have declared that Hamas will be wiped off the face of the Earth and Gaza will never go back to what it was.
    "Every Hamas member is a dead man," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said after fighters from the militant group killed 1,300 people in a brutal attack on Israel.
    This hardline approach is likely NOT ordained, but Israel does not negotiate with terrorists.

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     Message 33 by DrJones*, posted 10-14-2023 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 29 of 378 (913150)
    10-14-2023 7:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
    10-13-2023 9:09 AM


    Respect Goes Both Ways
    Percy writes:
    In a way, Hamas, as well as Fatah and Hezbollah, are the creation of Israel. They only exist in their current form as mostly military organizations opposed to Israel's existence because Israel inflicts unending suffering and hardship on Palestinians, which only perpetuates an unending cycle of violence.
    From the day Israel was (re)created, opponents sought to eliminate them. After this most recent attack, I would think that "unending suffering and hardship" are inflicted by both sides. The only difference between Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens is the level of prosperity.
    And just as in America with "the blacks" reparations are NOT the solution.
    To be fair, Israel should allow the Palestinians to earn their way as do their own Jewish population, but handouts are never the answer. Israel won't ever forget the 4 wars between 1948 and 1973.
    Israel should treat the Palestinians with decency and dare I say love (as their God commands them) but it takes time to regain trust. This is true of both sides. And these skirmishes only keep setting that progress back.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 36 of 378 (913169)
    10-14-2023 2:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Theodoric
    10-14-2023 1:08 PM


    Re: Follow The Money
    Neither. Next question?

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 39 of 378 (913175)
    10-15-2023 6:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
    10-15-2023 1:31 AM


    Re: It All Started With the Nakba
    AZAlternatives3 writes:
    Judaeo-Christian morality is the evil poison your religions used to create this bloody inhumane situation. Judaeo-Christian morality is responsible for these crimes and deserves all disdain for all time.
    You and I would argue this one until the sacred cows came home!
    Granted, Israel has *not* represented the morality. One could argue that they have an eye for an eye approach to terrorism, but they could try to win the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people rather than allow a terrorist minority to represent Palestine and make them look like they will hate Israel forever!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2023 1:31 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
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