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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 241 of 378 (913795)
12-05-2023 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
12-05-2023 11:45 AM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
Better than the 5-6 sides in earlier centuries. I really don't think there are two sides. There is a lot of grey.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 11:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 10:06 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 242 of 378 (913796)
12-05-2023 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
12-05-2023 11:45 AM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
Phat in Message 240 writes:
Percy in Message 239 writes:
I think we as a nation should support life, peace, liberty, freedom and prosperity throughout the world.
The world demands that we pick a side. Why are there two sides in today's world?
Concerning issues like whether human beings have a right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," or however one chooses to put it, there are no sides. For example, people can legitimately take political sides and believe Trump the best candidate for president while still rejecting the inhumane belief that it's okay to treat illegal immigrants as lesser human beings.
Concerning the Middle East conflict, Palestinians are human beings with all the rights and privileges thereunto appertaining. Killing them is wrong, even those who are enthusiastic supporters of Hamas and all its crimes. There is almost no legitimate reason for killing another human being. One of them is that they're combatants aligned against you. Few Palestinians fit this category, and especially not the 11,000+ Palestinian women and children killed so far.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 11:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 243 of 378 (913797)
12-05-2023 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Theodoric
12-05-2023 12:40 PM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
It seems to be two.
One side demands group consensus and conformity for every individual and nation. The other side demands individual freedom at the expense of fairness for everyone

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2023 12:40 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2023 9:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 244 of 378 (913800)
12-06-2023 7:57 AM


Baby Steps
It's only one small action, but it's important in that it gives expression to our belief that Israeli treatment of West Bank Palestinians is wrong: US announces visa bans after warning Israel over West Bank violence. Those suspected of violating the rights of or committing violence against Palestinians on the West Bank can no longer obtain American visas.
The next baby step would be to expand the action to include those who dispossess Palestinians of their property, by whatever means.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2023 2:49 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 245 of 378 (913821)
12-07-2023 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Phat
12-05-2023 10:06 PM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
Life and politics are not black and white. It is all along a spectrum. Black and white thinking got us into this mess.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 10:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 246 of 378 (913840)
12-08-2023 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Percy
12-06-2023 7:57 AM


Re: Baby Steps
The latest BBC news on Gaza:
BBC 12/8/2023:

  • The UN Security Council will vote on a resolution put forward by the UAE calling for an "immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza"
  • UN chief Antonio Guterres said the situation in Gaza is at breaking point and it is time to act as "the eyes of the world and the eyes of history are watching"
  • The US has consistently opposed international calls for a ceasefire and is thought likely to vote against the resolution
  • But US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has urged Israel to do more to protect civilians, saying there is a “gap” between its promises and the reality on the ground
  • Hamas officials in Gaza say Israel has killed more than 17,177 people in its retaliatory campaign, including about 7,000 children
  • As the death toll steadily rises, global concern intensifies.
    I DO believe that the IDF is not some wanton group of thugs intent on genocide. I believe that Hamas was and is so entrenched in the civilian population (which is a tool for ideological protest) that Israel won't play nice. They may end up killing the patient to extract the cancer. And the probability is high that the cancer will regrow, given the trauma that the civilian population is facing. Like Britain and the U.S., I believe that Israel is waging the war the way that it must be waged to eradicate the current cancer of Hamas.
    Stay tuned on what the United Nations Security Council decides.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 244 by Percy, posted 12-06-2023 7:57 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 247 by Percy, posted 12-08-2023 5:40 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    Message 247 of 378 (913842)
    12-08-2023 5:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 246 by Phat
    12-08-2023 2:49 PM


    Re: Baby Steps
    Phat in Message 246 writes:
    I DO believe that the IDF is not some wanton group of thugs intent on genocide.
    Call them whatever you like, they're still committing war crimes. There is no section in the laws of war titled "Situations of Military Necessity Justifying the Wholesale Murder of Civilians".
    I believe that Hamas was and is so entrenched in the civilian population (which is a tool for ideological protest) that Israel won't play nice.
    "Not playing nice" is a very misleading synonym for "murdering civilians".
    They may end up killing the patient to extract the cancer.
    Genocide is a war crime.
    And the probability is high that the cancer will regrow, given the trauma that the civilian population is facing.
    Yes, of course.
    I believe that Israel is waging the war the way that it must be waged to eradicate the current cancer of Hamas.
    Eradication how, given what you just said about the high probability of Israeli war crimes driving further terrorism?
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2023 2:49 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    Message 248 of 378 (913846)
    12-09-2023 8:00 AM


    We're Complicit

    Replies to this message:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 12-11-2023 2:30 PM Percy has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 249 of 378 (913889)
    12-11-2023 2:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 248 by Percy
    12-09-2023 8:00 AM


    Re: We're Complicit
    I have just two questions. How is Israel going to get rid of Hamas? They have a hostile government next door to them. A two-state solution seems impossible at the current time.
    Also, who is going to rebuild Gaza? It seems entrenched that Israel will insist that Hamas cannot run Palestine no matter what they want.
    The UN has two rogue governments to contend with.
    Netanyahu
    Hamas

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by Percy, posted 12-09-2023 8:00 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by Percy, posted 12-11-2023 5:00 PM Phat has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    Message 250 of 378 (913892)
    12-11-2023 5:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
    12-11-2023 2:30 PM


    Re: We're Complicit
    Phat in Message 249 writes:
    I have just two questions. How is Israel going to get rid of Hamas?
    Israel has cultivated Palestinian hatred for decades, forging the bonds that constrain any solutions today. I have no answers for Israel, but if there is an answer then I am certain that the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza is not it.
    It isn't easy to destroy a people. If Israel thinks they will destroy the Palestinians forever then they need only look to their own history to see their folly.
    Also, who is going to rebuild Gaza?
    I have no idea who will rebuild Gaza. I know who *should* rebuild Gaza. Israel.
    The UN has two rogue governments to contend with.
    Netanyahu
    Hamas
    Netanyahu is a head of government but is not himself a government. Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government. You should include the US on your list for being an Israel enabler, the most recent example being the veto of the cease-fire resolution in the Security Council. Our reasoning? It didn't include our proposed language.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 12-11-2023 2:30 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 251 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:20 AM Percy has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 251 of 378 (913938)
    12-14-2023 7:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 250 by Percy
    12-11-2023 5:00 PM


    Both sides are guilty.
    Percy writes:
    Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government.
    This is not true. Hamas is the acting government of Palestine.A government is responsible for any actions it takes. Both sides should be complicit in this particular case. The US suggested that to the UN but was unsuccessful.
    This whole idea of protecting only the weak is the same mentality that is wrong with defunding the police and allowing crimes against businesses to escalate.
    What's so wrong with condemning Hamas? You act as if they have a right to be a terrorist organization (and a government) as much as shoplifters have a right to steal.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by Percy, posted 12-11-2023 5:00 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 252 by Percy, posted 12-14-2023 2:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    (2)
    Message 252 of 378 (913948)
    12-14-2023 2:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
    12-14-2023 7:20 AM


    Re: Both sides are guilty.
    Phat in Message 251 writes:
    Percy writes:
    Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government.
    This is not true. Hamas is the acting government of Palestine.
    See if you still hold that opinion after I've provided a very brief history. In 2006 Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) running on a platform of peace and reconciliation. They lied, and there hasn't been an election since. The PLC's activities were suspended in 2007 and remain so today.
    Wouldn't it be more accurate to call Hamas a terrorist organization that runs Gaza for its own benefit in its campaign against Israel?
    Even if the PLC were still active, wouldn't that at best make Hamas only a political party, not a government?
    Also, as noted in earlier messages, Gaza and the West Bank are in a sort of nether status as a country. It's complicated.
    By the way, you meant Gaza, not Palestine.
    Both sides should be complicit in this particular case. The US suggested that to the UN but was unsuccessful.
    No, the US did not suggest language saying that both sides should be held complicit. The US language included a condemnation of Hamas. Is the source of your misinformation YouTube videos again?
    This whole idea of protecting only the weak is the same mentality that is wrong with defunding the police and allowing crimes against businesses to escalate.
    More YouTube video misinformation?
    What's so wrong with condemning Hamas?
    No one here said anything was wrong with condemning Hamas. Why would any decent person not condemn Hamas's murderous attack upon Israel? Don't mistake severe criticism of Israel's decades long maltreatment of Palestinians as an endorsement of Hamas.
    You act as if they have a right to be a terrorist organization (and a government) as much as shoplifters have a right to steal.
    No one here said or implied that Hamas has a right to be a terrorist organization. I think you must be confused by comments pointing out that Israel's maltreatment of Palestinians breeds terrorists.
    And no one here has ever suggested that shoplifters have a right to steal (it's off-topic anyway).
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:20 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 258 by Phat, posted 01-15-2024 1:34 PM Percy has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8593
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    (5)
    Message 253 of 378 (914083)
    12-23-2023 2:34 AM


    In October Hamas attacked Israel. That attack caused about 1100 dead (Israeli citizens, security forces, foreigners).
    As of today the Israeli army has killed about 20,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians.
    When is the blood of retribution enough?
    This is not a war for security. This is ethnic cleansing of the Bosnian type. Israel is committing crimes against humanity.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    (2)
    Message 254 of 378 (914200)
    01-02-2024 12:49 PM


    This Is Who We Are
    An editorial in today's New York Times recounts some details about objections within government to Israel's war in Gaza. From U.S.-Israel Relationship Shows Signs of Strain Amid War Against Hamas - The New York Times:
    quote:
    Mr. Biden has seen growing internal resistance to his backing of Israel, including multiple dissent cables from State Department diplomats. In November, more than 500 political appointees and staff members representing some 40 government agencies sent a letter to Mr. Biden protesting his support of Israel’s war in Gaza. Congressional Democrats have been pressing him to curb Israel’s assault, and the United States has found itself at odds with other countries at the United Nations.
    About our treatment of migrants at the border I keep saying, "This is not who we are." But now we're supporting Israel in its murderous war, and yesterday I read an editorial about the possibility that Trump might be reelected, despite his hateful, venomous, autocratic and vengeful approach to governing. It said that if despite all that Trump is reelected then we have face facts: This is who we are.
    Trump possibly reelected? Biden supporting the slaughter of innocents? Both Biden and Trump subjecting immigrants to inhumane treatment? Trump abandoning our allies and embracing dictators?
    Maybe this *is* who we are.
    --Percy

    Replies to this message:
     Message 255 by Rahvin, posted 01-03-2024 12:19 PM Percy has replied
     Message 270 by Phat, posted 02-04-2024 1:47 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Rahvin
    Member
    Posts: 4046
    Joined: 07-01-2005
    Member Rating: 5.3


    (2)
    Message 255 of 378 (914208)
    01-03-2024 12:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 254 by Percy
    01-02-2024 12:49 PM


    Re: This Is Who We Are
    American foreign policy has always been pretty monstrous. Our military and economic power allows us to act effectively without consequence - we appeal to "international law" when it suits us without ever being bound to the same rules.
    Foreign policy isnt about ethics or morality. Its about *power.* Nations don't have friends, they have interests.
    The Biden admin sees support for Israel as securing American interests in the middle-east. The US wants to turn its focus away from the region, but to do so our leaders believe that they need effective proxies in the region: Israel and Saudi Arabia.
    Unfortunately those are really really bad if you care about ethics, morality, and democracy.
    Building on that, in the midst of a crisis it appears that our leaders are trying to maintain influence through support - if you tell Israel to stop too harshly, they tell us to go fuck ourselves and then we lose our influence, or so the story goes. I dont think I buy that reasoning myself in a situation like this one.
    It's easy when Israel is constantly painted by the media and every US official as the "good guys," an innocent victim of a terror attack. And the US had a very similar response to 9/11 - we lost 3000 people that day, and launched two wars spanning decades in a massive response. We killed a *lot* more than 3000 civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. "You hit me, so Im going to hit you back harder to teach you a lesson," or "you have made yourself my enemy, and I will kill all of my enemies." These are popular ideas.
    Modern technology is letting us look more directly at the results, and as it turns out, most Americans don't actually like what they see when presented with the reality. We've known about some of the consequences of American foreign policy, but we often don't see it in this much detail or when the actual crisis is happening.
    Now we have social media posts where an Israeli soldier literally talks about how he wants to kill Palestinian babies, but there are no babies left alive so he killed a 12 year old girl.
    Even the most hawkish supporters of Israel would find that video unsettling, I would imagine.
    Foreign policy isnt about ethics or morality. It's about power.
    Maybe it's time for that to change.

    “The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

    “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

    "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

    "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

    "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
    1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

    Nihil supernum


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 254 by Percy, posted 01-02-2024 12:49 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 256 by Percy, posted 01-04-2024 8:14 AM Rahvin has replied

      
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