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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 210 of 378 (913633)
11-24-2023 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
11-24-2023 3:15 PM


Re: How the World Sees Us
That was an interesting yet sobering article. Before, in Ukraine, it was the West vs the Russian bully. Now, it is seemingly the globally marginalized versus a genocidal West. This is not good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 3:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 213 of 378 (913642)
11-25-2023 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
11-24-2023 3:15 PM


Re: How the World Sees Us
Percy writes:
We must tell Israel in no uncertain terms and in a way the whole world can hear that we cannot support them while they are committing war crimes.

The loss of Israel would be a serious blow. Israel helps anchor our presence in the Middle East and has been a net positive for our foreign policy in the region.
Let's get one thing clear. Israel will NEVER cease to exist. They have over 100 Nukes and would not hesitate to use them if their existence were threatened.
ADD BY EDIT:
BBC:

Hamas delays hostage release, accusing Israel of breaking truce deal
  • Hamas has announced it is delaying the release of further Israeli hostages
  • A statement by its military wing says Israel has broken the terms of the truce deal - a claim that Israel has denied
  • A Hamas official told the BBC that Israel had stopped 97 aid trucks from reaching northern Gaza, and also flew drones over southern Gaza
  • I don't see only Israel as the villain, even though due to a masterful propaganda campaign, Hamas is portraying itself as the victim.
    This latest move is calculated to enrage Israel and at the same time garner more public global support for Hamas, who are terrorists pure and simple. If any charges of war crimes are to be leveled, they will be shared by both sides. Hamas uses civilian casualties to further their cause. I fully agree with Israel at this point. hamas should be totally eliminated.
    This is war. It is not some bleeding heart game of "be nice and play fair".
    And World War III will likely erupt from this. Sad to say.
    The problem is only growing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 3:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 220 by marc9000, posted 11-27-2023 2:21 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 214 of 378 (913643)
    11-25-2023 2:19 PM


    According To Al Jazeera
    Lest anyone think that the media is not embroiled in a propaganda war, note the following reports from Al Jazeera.
    As Israel pounds Gaza, BBC journalists accuse broadcaster of bias
    Al Jazeera:
    London, United Kingdom – The BBC has been accused by its journalists of failing to tell the story of the Israel-Palestine conflict accurately, investing greater effort in humanising Israeli victims compared with Palestinians, and omitting key historical context in coverage.
    In a 2,300-word letter written to Al Jazeera by eight UK-based journalists employed by the corporation, the BBC is also said to be guilty of a “double standard in how civilians are seen”, given that it is “unflinching” in its reporting of alleged Russian war crimes in Ukraine.
    (...) Rights groups and hundreds of thousands of protesters worldwide, outraged by the soaring Palestinian death toll in Gaza, have called for a ceasefire.
    The war has also divided newsrooms globally, with disagreements over how each side is being portrayed, the allegedly unequal level of empathy shown to Israeli and Palestinian victims, and the use of language.

    The media is supposed to be unbiased, right?
    I feel that Israel is not the sole villain. They are killing civilians in excessive amounts, but they may feel that in many cases it is the only way to also kill the Hamas fighters hiding among them. And I feel that Hamas knows this. They know what they are doing and how it will play out in public opinion. Hamas is an ideological symbol and its leaders include the common people as part of Hamas. Hamas is like a cancer. In order to target the cancer, the patient is also weakened. Does anyone expect Israel to abandon their plan to eliminate Hamas?

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 215 of 378 (913644)
    11-25-2023 2:45 PM


    A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    As I pause to read what I have written, I realize that I am reacting emotionally to media coverage rather than responding rationally. This war is frustrating, but in a larger context, I see a parallel with my reaction (earlier) to the shoplifters. To be honest, I don't think that Hamas should exist any more than I think shoplifters should be allowed in the stores.
    I honestly admit that my behavior is light years away from where Jesus would want me to be. At the same time, I do not think that Percy, or nwr, or Tangle is being any more Christlike by suggesting that we allow them to have their way.
    Percy mentioned that these wars are indirectly our wars. (US) Just as you don't cure shoplifting by giving a guy a house, you don't cure war by giving Hamas a country and rebuilding what you broke. The ideology must change.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 216 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2023 3:05 PM Phat has replied
     Message 219 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 9:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 217 of 378 (913646)
    11-25-2023 3:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 216 by Tangle
    11-25-2023 3:05 PM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    Neither is Israel my nor your country. Nor is Palestine.
    We get mad at shoplifters because they take material goods and raise prices for everyone else. What irks me is that they have no right--no entitlement to do so. And they steal that right.
    Hamas took the entitlement of peace away from all of us. They use their own civilians in some higher ideological cause of freedom and entitlement to a country.
    They won't get it by attacking Israel, nor will shoplifters get their chance and hope by stealing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 216 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2023 3:05 PM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 218 by nwr, posted 11-25-2023 5:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 223 of 378 (913687)
    11-29-2023 8:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 222 by Percy
    11-28-2023 7:52 AM


    To The Victors Go The Spoils
    Israel will have to try really hard to lose this war. That fact might eventually happen in the court of public opinion. The Palestinian cause is boosted by an outstanding public relations campaign.
    Percy writes:
    I'm against atrocities and crimes against humanity, no matter who commits them, but having atrocities committed against you doesn't give you the right to commit atrocities back. (...) Israel is its own worst enemy as it creates successive generations of terrorists through its maltreatment of the Palestinian people under its control.
    Only Israel can fix Israel. If they, as a people, focus on healing their national soul, they may become repentant. I agree that one must turn the other cheek in regard to the Palestinians. One question is: Who will pay to reconstruct Palestine?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 222 by Percy, posted 11-28-2023 7:52 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 233 of 378 (913701)
    11-30-2023 1:04 AM


    Truce Is Extended
    BBC:
    Summary
  • The Israeli military says the six-day truce in Gaza will continue in light of mediators'
    efforts to continue the process of releasing hostages
  • Ten more Israeli hostages - and four Thai citizens - returned to Israeli territory after the group's release from Gaza on Wednesday evening
  • Israel earlier said two Russian-Israeli women were also back in Israel - having also been released on Wednesday
  • Israel's prison service says it has freed a further 30 Palestinian prisoners
  • Wednesday was the sixth day of a truce between Israel and Hamas in Gaza; talks are ongoing in an effort to extend this before it expires
  • Earlier, two boys aged 8 and 14 were shot dead during an Israeli raid in the city of Jenin in the occupied West Bank
  • The Israeli military hasn't commented on the two boys specifically, but says it killed a senior Islamic Jihad commander and arrested 17 others during an operation targeting a refugee camp
  • Lets hope the truce continues until all hostages are released.

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 235 of 378 (913717)
    12-01-2023 7:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 234 by Percy
    11-30-2023 6:48 AM


    The War Resumes, Sadly
    The truce has not been extended.
    Differing reports come in about which side broke the truce, but in any war there will always be two sides. The side that Israel is on includes the United States and as a result, brands us differently than the role we played (and still play) in the War in Ukraine. We in the West are not fulfilling our duty to secure human rights in this war, and it has caused us to lose all sorts of credibility globally.
    Israel has lost the war of public opinion
    Al Jazeera Opinion:
    In the age of social media, Israel is no longer able to conceal the truth about its conduct in Palestine.
    I am not there, either as a journalist or a soldier. I am only one of many globally who form an opinion based on what the media tells us is happening. This media includes social media and footage from peoples smart phones. If there ever is a World War III, I do not want to represent the wrong side of History.
    Al Jazeera:

  • Dozens of Palestinians killed since Israel resumed attacks on Gaza after expiration of truce, according to health officials.
  • Israeli army drops leaflets telling people in parts of already bombarded southern Gaza to evacuate, signalling an expanding offensive.
  • International mediators, including Qatar, Egypt and the United States, had pushed for another extension of the pause, which expired at 7am local time (05:00 GMT) on Friday.
  • More than 15,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since October 7. In Israel, the official death toll stands at about 1,200.
  • Since the United States is basically the only global power whom Israel listens to, it is our responsibility to stop the killing.
    Critics will say that Israel is resolved to eliminate Hamas, but it appears that this is impossible. As a matter of fact, the next generation of Hamas recruits are being birthed out of this violent conflict as we speak. The unity party needs to kick the far right out of their government. The Israeli people will only do that once they suffer "too many deaths" as Palestine now has. War is Hell. I hate this war. We all need to write our congressmen.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by Percy, posted 11-30-2023 6:48 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 238 of 378 (913789)
    12-05-2023 11:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 236 by Percy
    12-04-2023 5:32 PM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    I think we should stay out of it. We should neither support nor defend either party.
    Of course in today's world that is impossible. And if we backed out, Russia or Iran would quickly fill the void. As a believer in a higher power, (higher than humanity or the UN)
    I realize that many "believers" support Israel and many humanists support Palestine (though not Hamas). I also realize that you are a believer though not conservative nor fantasy-based.
    We would never go against Israel in support of Palestine. That's all I know.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by Percy, posted 12-04-2023 5:32 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 239 by Percy, posted 12-05-2023 11:26 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 240 of 378 (913792)
    12-05-2023 11:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 239 by Percy
    12-05-2023 11:26 AM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    I agree with your statement. The world demands that we pick a side. Why are there two sides in today's world?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by Percy, posted 12-05-2023 11:26 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 241 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2023 12:40 PM Phat has replied
     Message 242 by Percy, posted 12-05-2023 3:50 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 243 of 378 (913797)
    12-05-2023 10:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 241 by Theodoric
    12-05-2023 12:40 PM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    It seems to be two.
    One side demands group consensus and conformity for every individual and nation. The other side demands individual freedom at the expense of fairness for everyone

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 241 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2023 12:40 PM Theodoric has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 246 of 378 (913840)
    12-08-2023 2:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 244 by Percy
    12-06-2023 7:57 AM


    Re: Baby Steps
    The latest BBC news on Gaza:
    BBC 12/8/2023:

  • The UN Security Council will vote on a resolution put forward by the UAE calling for an "immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza"
  • UN chief Antonio Guterres said the situation in Gaza is at breaking point and it is time to act as "the eyes of the world and the eyes of history are watching"
  • The US has consistently opposed international calls for a ceasefire and is thought likely to vote against the resolution
  • But US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has urged Israel to do more to protect civilians, saying there is a “gap” between its promises and the reality on the ground
  • Hamas officials in Gaza say Israel has killed more than 17,177 people in its retaliatory campaign, including about 7,000 children
  • As the death toll steadily rises, global concern intensifies.
    I DO believe that the IDF is not some wanton group of thugs intent on genocide. I believe that Hamas was and is so entrenched in the civilian population (which is a tool for ideological protest) that Israel won't play nice. They may end up killing the patient to extract the cancer. And the probability is high that the cancer will regrow, given the trauma that the civilian population is facing. Like Britain and the U.S., I believe that Israel is waging the war the way that it must be waged to eradicate the current cancer of Hamas.
    Stay tuned on what the United Nations Security Council decides.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 244 by Percy, posted 12-06-2023 7:57 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 249 of 378 (913889)
    12-11-2023 2:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 248 by Percy
    12-09-2023 8:00 AM


    Re: We're Complicit
    I have just two questions. How is Israel going to get rid of Hamas? They have a hostile government next door to them. A two-state solution seems impossible at the current time.
    Also, who is going to rebuild Gaza? It seems entrenched that Israel will insist that Hamas cannot run Palestine no matter what they want.
    The UN has two rogue governments to contend with.
    Netanyahu
    Hamas

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by Percy, posted 12-09-2023 8:00 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by Percy, posted 12-11-2023 5:00 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 251 of 378 (913938)
    12-14-2023 7:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 250 by Percy
    12-11-2023 5:00 PM


    Both sides are guilty.
    Percy writes:
    Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government.
    This is not true. Hamas is the acting government of Palestine.A government is responsible for any actions it takes. Both sides should be complicit in this particular case. The US suggested that to the UN but was unsuccessful.
    This whole idea of protecting only the weak is the same mentality that is wrong with defunding the police and allowing crimes against businesses to escalate.
    What's so wrong with condemning Hamas? You act as if they have a right to be a terrorist organization (and a government) as much as shoplifters have a right to steal.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by Percy, posted 12-11-2023 5:00 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 252 by Percy, posted 12-14-2023 2:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 258 of 378 (914414)
    01-15-2024 1:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by Percy
    12-14-2023 2:18 PM


    World War III is Nearly Inevitable
    I watched an informative documentary on the political entities surrounding Israel and the likely response at some point in the near future. It is quite good...it is not a hack, Percy.
    JUDGE FOR YOURSELF: How the US & Iran Are Preparing to Fight Over Israel
    The BBC reported that just 24 hours ago, Yemen was struck hard by British and American jets. Is there any way to avoid WW III without selling Israel out?

    This message is a reply to:
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     Message 264 by Theodoric, posted 01-16-2024 4:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 265 by Percy, posted 01-16-2024 5:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 267 by Percy, posted 01-17-2024 8:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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