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Author | Topic: Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: What was the reason? Did you tell everyone the same thing? We just got back from visitation and we knocked on 300 doors this morning. The reason we do this is because Jesus told His disciples to go into the world and make disciples and then to teach them the all things he had taught them. The only reason for a churches existence is to carry out this mission He gave to it. We use door hangers that has a picture of our church on the front with our address, phone number and a invitation for them to come and worship with us and giving the church schedule. On the back is God's simple plan of salvation. I designed these and make them myself. We do not push anything we simply visit as a neighbor.
Phat writes: I remember my Daddy as having a loving giving heart, but also a man that had not fully learned to be honest with himself and open up. My dad was one of the greatest people I ever knew. He never hurt anyone but he could have. He wa 6'1 weighed 245 lbs and wore size 33 britches and could lift the front end of a farmall super A tractor off the ground. He would help anybody and did. If you needed his shirt he would have taken it off and gave it to you. All of this before he was born again. I had been born again for 14 years before my dad was born again. But being good and being sincere does not satisfy God's requirement for entrance into heaven. So we knock on doors and try to present an alternative for people to choose to believe God exists, loves them, and will save them. Rather than spend eternity with the devil.
Phat writes: I won't feel guilty simply for not pushing Jesus onto them. As I said we don't push or pressure people to be saved. I found out a long time ago if I convinced a person to be saved against their will that they were unconvinced still. Meaning they were still lost and probably never would get saved as they had a false belief. One example of how I operate. My teenage brother in law whom I loved told me one day after I had witnessed to him on many occasion that he would get saved when he was ready. From that moment I never mention salvation to him again. I had done my job as he realized he needed to be saved. A few years later he was saved and went on to become a sunday school teacher and finally a deacon in the church. We are to witness and set the example and then depend on God to finish the job. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
A BETTER MEDIATOR
How are you doing, Pastor? A lot has been happening here in Denver recently. I won't get into the Labor Negotiations stuff...you can read about that in my other topic. What I wanted to talk about today were conversations that I had with two of my Pastors...or should I say former Pastors because one of them moved to California and the other one still heads up our church. To be honest, I don't get to church very often because I work on Sundays and also because I feel like I can't relate to the flock...they are very literalist and simple Bible Believing people who know very little about science and who never engage in any debates as we do here at EvC...though they are good at debating/discussing scripture.Here is what Pastor Joe posts on Facebook. A mediator is a person who seeks to resolve conflicts, bringing about a negotiated peace between two parties who are at odds with one another. The conflict between God and mankind is not one that a mediator can simply negotiate away. Something deep ” God’s holiness ” has been transgressed and the required mediation involves the offending party to make it right. The enmity between God and humanity calls for something much more significant than a typical negotiation. Something supernatural needs to occur to bring about a resolution in the conflict between God’s holiness and fallen human beings. We can discuss this scripture if you want. Though we see Moses functioning as a mediator in Deuteronomy 5:5, Christians have a mediator who is far superior to him. In fact, this mediator satisfied the terms of the negotiation himself by taking the punishment required to bring about peace and right the wrongs caused by our unrighteousness (Jer 31:31 - 34; Heb 9:14 - 15). Whereas Moses was unable to ensure the Lord’s continued favor as the leader of the Israelites, Jesus secured eternal blessing for those who find righteousness in him. Whereas the people of Israel feared the presence of God because of their sin (Dt 5:5), Christians may enter the presence of God boldly because of a perfect standing before the Lord through Jesus (Eph 3:12). In Jesus and through faith in him, believers may approach God with freedom and confidence that they will not be rejected or judged for shortcomings. His righteous perfection covers imperfection and provides admission into the presence of God. What a mediator is Christ Jesus!
Deuteronomy” ”5:4-5” ”NKJV”” I have not heard from you in a while. You must be busy with your own flock doing the stuff you guys do.Also, I wanted to share with you a conversation that I had with my Old Pastor in Cali. I edited the names so as to protect my friend's privacy. The conversation arose because of something I posted on Facebook. It was a New Age quote regarding the concept of love. I should have known that it would cause controversy! https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/...449684054016_n.jpg
facebook discussion between myself and others writes:
It goes on...
Pastor: You believe this? Me: I know that God is love...not some vague universal energy force...and I also know that Jesus embodies perfect love and that only through Him can we truly love. Which leads me to wonder why I'm still selfish and stingy...
Mike: This is a new age philosophy bro not Biblical.
Me: I know that it is, Mike. Technically it is called syncretism, I believe. Part truth and part error. I know the difference. My mind works by comparing different philosophies and discerning truth vs error. I never listen to just one side in an argument or discussion...except when I pray. Then I surrender to His wisdom. Sometimes I post something without having really read it thoroughly... When I teach, I present more than one argument (even if Jesus IS the right One ) so that people can see the subtle differences in philosophy. Pastor: do you not take heed during your preaching time (teaching) Galatians 1:8,9 into account? It was Paul bringing a rebuke, not once but twice. I believe there has been many of these brought to you. Now, do you also teach while presenting an argument other than the Gospel that the Gospel of Christ is not of mere man's wisdom? To me, it makes more logical sense to believe the one who received it by divine revelation. Besides, that’s more epic! And another thing, I don’t care what anyone says. I believe it. I’m sure after all these years of educating yourself with man's wisdom it’s taken a toll on you. Perhaps (this is) why you're teaching mans wisdom as you compare it to the Truth.In my opinion, you can’t compare apples to oranges. But, because I know you have always been into man's wisdom and ways I wouldn’t expect anything other. All the years and you're still pondering and intrigued by the man of this world. Peace and Grace to you Brother. Hope all is well. I’m enjoying California for this season. Me: I'm glad that you are doing well in Cali and I know that God is using you for a lot of great things. We really miss you here. I miss our arguments, and I have learned to accept rebuke...but a wise man seeks a multitude of council. This whole idea of "the Bible says it..that settles it" theology will not reach the current generation or the techno world of today without the power of the Holy Spirit. Now I will agree that Gods wisdom is superior to man's wisdom. I DO need to humble myself. I want to go to lunch with Pastor Joe one of these days. I will admit that I can be a rebel.
Mike: If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you want and it will be given you. #REDLETTERJESUS apart from Me, you can do nothing!
Me I can never argue with scripture...at least in the NT. Some of that OT stuff is puzzling, though. Like that one part about the sun stopping!
Mark: May not be verbiage from the Bible, but the sentiment surely is biblical.
Arthur Will u feel painfully remorseful Craig if you stepped on a worm?
Me I can agree with my Pastors that human wisdom in and of itself is flawed. I do not consider myself a word for word literalist, but more of a thought for thought literalist. Let's take the story of the Flood. I have watched arguments about whether the event actually happened or not play themselves out many many times at EvC Forum, where I hang out. And in today's modern world one cannot be expected to literally believe this story without denying everything that humans have learned since the story was written. Pastor Age is right, though, in that sometimes you just have to believe. My point, if I have one, is that one need not believe a "Whole Bible" (in a word for word context) in order to be a believer.
Mike: (Phat), do you believe God lies to His people?
Me: ok...I'll go with this...WHO are His people? (For the record I believe that God cannot lie.)
Mike His people are whosoever believes, His whole word is truth yet when He says he stopped the sun, you call it a lie. What would you say if you were a part of that conversation? The rest of you can comment here:
Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate Edited by Phat, : added linkChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ICANT Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Sorry it has been so long since I spoke to you in this debate.I have been having a lot of trouble with my 2nd knee replacement surgery. Besides taking care of my duties as pastor. Age is becoming a real problem as I will be 81 in 3 months. This old body of flesh is wearing out. Phat writes: What would you say if you were a part of that conversation? As far as mediator goes they are simply one or more between two or more parties trying to bring about an agreement between all involved. Moses was an advocate for Israel with God, just as Jesus is our advocate with God today. An advocate is a personal lawyer who pleads the individual's case. Whether it is before God, an earthly judge or jury.
quote:I guess Mike has never read the fourth chapter of 1 John where verse 8 and 16 both state "God is Love". Then again he may have a bible that does not have 1 John in it.
quote: Sounds like Mike is one of those people that believe all you have to do is ask God for something and He has to give it to you. The magic words there is abide because if you are not abiding in Him you are not going to get anything until you are restored with Him by repenting and turning from the things God does not like. I would like to ask you why you can't believe that the sun stood still at God's command? Barrow Alaska has 2 months out of the year where there is light. That is due to the tilt of the earth in relation to the sun. In the last 150 years the North Pole has moved about 685 miles. Today it is moving at an unprecedented rate toward London. So to produce the long day nothing had to stop as the north pole could have shifted at a different rate or the earth could have slowed it rotation or both could have taken place at the same time. So why couldn't God who created all those things control them to bring about His desires. Or as far as that goes God is light so He could have provided the light need for the long day without anything slowing, stopping, or even moving. God says they had a long day which means they had a long day. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
ICANT writes:
I have a couple of church related questions for you, Pastor. I have been having a lot of trouble with my 2nd knee replacementsurgery. Besides taking care of my duties as pastor. Age is becoming a real problem as I will be 81 in 3 months. This old body of flesh is wearing out. 1) Was your church affected by the recent social distancing guidelines and did it close for awhile or were you able to work around these legalities since your congregation is so small? 2) Do you believe that we are in the Last Days as a nation and/or world or do you simply teach as you have always taught and not worry about such extreme theology? I try and keep a balanced and open mind regarding such topics though I believe that we will see it within the next 100 years. I always joke with my customers in line at work. I tell them that God is warning America similar to how God warned Israel years before judgement. Essentially we are in a dress rehearsal and the Lord is challenging us to really try our best as people to get along with each other, respect each other, and essentially follow what Jesus taught were the two greatest commandments. Also I wanted you to watch one of my favorite revivalist Pastors---in my opinion he is not selling snake oil and he is a much needed fire for the younger people in an otherwise apathetic church. Watch Isaiah Saldivar and tell me what you think of him. Isaiah reaches much of his audience via the internet, though he also travels to churches to speak--under normal conditions. COVID-19 caused him to do more on the internet, but he is in my opinion a gifted Pastor with an Apostolic anointing who genuinely cares about the church in America today. Show him to some of the younger people in your congregation.
The rest of you can comment here:
Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate Edited by Phat, : added peanut gallery link. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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AnswersInGenitals Member (Idle past 410 days) Posts: 673 Joined: |
I would like to ask you why you can't believe that the sun stood still at God's command? Barrow Alaska has 2 months out of the year where there is light. That is due to the tilt of the earth in relation to the sun.
Barrow also has two months of darkness. But, the sun does NOT appear to stand still! It skims along just above (summer) or just below (winter) the horizon! The only way that the sun would appear to stand still would occur if the earth’s rotational axis were pointed directly at the sun and you were standing exactly on the axis. But, of course, that is just how the sun appears due to the rotation of the earth. The sun does orbit around the galactic center so maybe that is the motion god brought to a halt for some reason. Or, if he wanted to provide a period of prolonged light he would just stop the earth’s rotation, which would have caused no ill effects since god did not create momentum until April 16, 512CE. (as long as we’re just inventing nonsense.)
The real question is ‘why did god want to crush and enslave the Amorites?’. Weren’t they also gods children, descendants of Adam and Eve? this thread is private. please direct all comments to the peanut gallery thread. Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it. 1. Who is speaking/writing?2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing? 3. What subject is he speaking/writing about? 4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing? 5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing? We need to add the proper application rule to understand the Bible. There is the general application of a truth or deed to every person.And The particular application of a truth or deed to an individual or particular group. The first thing you need to know is who is speaking or writing?1. Sometime God is speaking. 2. Sometime angels are speaking. 3. Sometime the devil is speaking. 4. Sometime prophets are speaking. 5. Sometime wicked men are speaking. 6. Sometime apostles are speaking. Also some more Isaiah. I really respect the anointing this young man has.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
How are you doing, ICANT? I edited this post because I wanted to show you what Isaiah Saldivar is preaching/teaching sharing with the public regarding COVID 19.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : replaced video with a better one.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG |
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ICANT Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
I been preaching that message for the past 58 years. Nobody listens or cares. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
I mentioned coming here for some discussion. From Message 415 quote: You can not look at the above and come to any conclusion other than there is a God in control. The CMBR is the greatest visible relic that is used to support the standard theory. The CMBR is the result of a very bright period of light in the past. Did you know that the CMBR supports the Biblical creation story? The light period that existed from the 'beginning' until Genesis 1:2 would have produced light in the universe that would be the same everywhere. Genesis 1:1 tells us that "in the beginning" created God the heavens and the earth.I have yet to find any person religious, or scientific that can tell me when the beginning was. Scientist tells me the universe is about 13.8 billion years old. Gappers tell me it is very old with no known age. But they have to insert super long days in order to get their old universe. YEC's tell me it is between 10,000 and 6,000 years old. Phat I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not in the form we see it today. Moses could not understand what God was telling him about creation of the universe. The reason I believe the universe has always existed is because God has always existed. So the energy and matter that compose our universe could not be created. Evidence for Biblical creation: 1. CMBR2. Land mass in one place. 3. Land mass divided. 4. Universe is expanding. Science has discovered these things in the last few years but the Bible recorded them over 2800 hundred years ago. These were not predictions but statements of fact that have been verified by science. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Watch this presentation. A man with as much math knowledge as the late Dr.Hawking talks about the two worldviews of materialism and spiritual Trinitarian Monotheism that you and I are familiar with.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Edited.
Edited by Phat, : Edited The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy God alone is Godbut God is not alone~Ellis Potter We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed |
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Its been awhile since we talked, I CANT.
Here are my questions:
I personally believe that God has a few more lessons for Israel and that they will reap what they sow. I personally do not blame them for reacting to the attacks of Hamas, but I do not think they will ever get rid of Hamas through force.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: Does Jesus weep over Palestine as He weeps for Jerusalem? Jesus weeps over all lost sinners. But He weeps more over saved sinners not doing what they should be doing. But Israel is a special case. You can read about all the things He has done for them and all the times they have turned away from Him and that really breaks His heart. Just like it does when I disobey Him.
Phat writes:
You kill a bunch of my kinfolks and kidnap a bunch of them and see how I respond. Is Israel behaving morally or are they reacting irrationally? The descendants of Ishmael have been trying to wipe the descendants of Isaac from the face of the earth for over 3,000 years so this war did not just start. The descendants of Isaac was scattered across the face of the earth. But God promised to regather them to Jerusalem which He did starting in 1948. God also promised them they would not be scattered again. When many of the nations decide to go to Jerusalem and destroy God's chosen people He will show the world who is in control. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18653 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Hello Pastor. Im glad that you responded to me. Lets nosh. Assuming that the Bible is thought for thought literal,(as opposed to word for word literal) we have an account of how things came to be, especially human nature. AZPaul3 insists that religion is and has always been evil and harmful to the world, but I think he is focusing his disgust more on human behavior than on God and gods whom he quite obviously has never believed in. Many members here at the forum speak of a "genocidal God" and are not so much angry at a Spirit(or spirit) whom they do not believe in, but more likely angry at believers for continuing to behave badly. And they are right in that many religious people of all beliefs are willfully ignorant when they ignore the scriptures of the New Testament if it involves them and their kinfolk personally. As examples, the Catholic/Protestant violence in Northern Ireland, the Isaac Ismael thing you mentioned in the middle east, the war in China that Percy7 mentioned as horribly genocidal...I could go on. One point that is missing in many of these arguments against a genocidal god and consequently genocidal followers is the person of Jesus Christ. If Jesus is God, God can not be charged with being genocidal because Christ Himself was never genocidal.(I should say was and is. There are Christian pacifists) In closing, I will also mention my belief that God is not through with Israel. They no doubt should be in a lot of soul searching right now. They know a lot about their God, but as a nation have not yet met Him.
‘If Christ were born today, he would be born under rubble, Israeli bombing’ Edited by Phat, . Edited by Phat, .
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ICANT Member (Idle past 287 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: Hello Pastor. Im glad that you responded to me. Lets nosh. Assuming that the Bible is thought for thought literal,(as opposed to word for word literal) we have an account of how things came to be, especially human nature. The Bible we have is far from perfect. I have studied Biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew for 50 plus years so I can study the oldest texts we have available. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been a treasure. But even the old texts have been copied thousands of times and some of those people let some of their personal beliefs get in the text. So without the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth we would be out of luck.
Phat writes: And they are right in that many religious people of all beliefs are willfully ignorant Right now the devil has more churches and preachers than God does. They tell people to just repeat a prayer after me and then tell them that they are saved. The problem is there are millions of them walking around claiming to be christians while living like the devil himself. They give Christianity a bad name.
Phat writes: a genocidal god Everybody that says God is genocidal does not realize the price He paid to buy them back out of slavery to the devil which the man in the garden did when he disobeyed God. And there are many who have convinced themselves that God does not exist as they are their God.
Phat writes: God is not through with Israel. They have had many countries try to wipe them off the planet earth. Those countries no longer exist. In the future most of the world will come to Jerusalem to destroy it and Michael and his angels will do the fighting for Israel. After that battle is over there will be one thousand years of peace on earth. So no God is not through with Israel Because He made a promise to Abraham. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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