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Author Topic:   Atheists: Time to Come Out of the Closet!
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 7.0


(3)
Message 121 of 174 (913925)
12-13-2023 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dredge
12-13-2023 8:54 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes:
If the "ultimate purpose" of life is meaninglessness, then life is meaningless from beginning to end. [...] If this life is all there is, doing evil things is as meaningless as doing good things in other words, morality is meaningless
You're terrified of this idea aren't you? Which is a bit weird as those that know there is no god or afterlife couldn't give a hoot about it.
How do you reconcile that Dredge?
Quite obviously atheists have meaning in their lives and act as morally as anybody else. So where is this imaginary problem?
It's no good asserting that these things don't exist without your imaginary spook, because it's easily demonstrated that they do - I'm a moral being and I have meaning in my life yet I don't believe in your hocus pocus. I guess that means you're wrong. Who knew?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dredge, posted 12-13-2023 8:54 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2023 9:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 122 of 174 (913930)
12-13-2023 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dredge
12-13-2023 8:54 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge in Message 120 writes:
Christ promised that his (Catholic) Church will never be destroyed (Matt 16:19). That promise doesn’t apply to non-Catholic "churches", bcoz all non-Catholic "churches" are fake churches, preaching fake Christianity to people who are too stupid or too mentally unstable or too intellectually dishonest to see the truth of Catholicism. One day, Christ will remove all false religion from the face of the earth - including your fake Christianity.
You're only off by one about the number of fake churches.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dredge, posted 12-13-2023 8:54 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:33 AM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 123 of 174 (913939)
12-14-2023 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
12-13-2023 4:58 PM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Percy, addressing Dredge writes:
You're only off by one about the number of fake churches.
Are you saying there are no real churches? A church is represented by its members...not its fancy buildings or men wearing silly hats. Dredge is not showing a Christlike attitude towards other churches or atheists. Blame him, not his church. They likely have some people of character. I know of several.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 12-13-2023 4:58 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Percy, posted 12-14-2023 9:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 126 by dwise1, posted 12-14-2023 9:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 124 of 174 (913940)
12-14-2023 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
12-14-2023 7:33 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Phat writes:
Percy, addressing Dredge writes:
You're only off by one about the number of fake churches.
Are you saying there are no real churches? A church is represented by its members...not its fancy buildings or men wearing silly hats. Dredge is not showing a Christlike attitude towards other churches or atheists. Blame him, not his church. They likely have some people of character. I know of several.
You're playing semantic games. I used the same terminology as Dredge. He said all churches except the Catholic Church are fake. Whatever Dredge meant by "church" and "fake", I in effect said that the Catholic Church is also fake.
Will you continue to ignore that Dredge called your own church fake and that followers like you are "too stupid or too mentally unstable or too intellectually dishonest to see the truth of Catholicism. One day, Christ will remove all false religion from the face of the earth - including your fake Christianity."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:33 AM Phat has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 125 of 174 (913941)
12-14-2023 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Tangle
12-13-2023 11:46 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Tangle writes:
Quite obviously atheists have meaning in their lives
If this life is all there is and all life-forms are the product of some mindless natural process, the life of a human has no more meaning than the life of a worm ... or a rock, for that matter. If belief in God is a delusion, your belief that your life has meaning is also a delusion.
and act as morally as anybody else ... It's no good asserting that these things don't exist without your imaginary spook, because it's easily demonstrated that they do
You're barking up the wrong tree here - I never claimed that atheists can't act morally. All career criminals and serial killers are atheists, but not all atheists are career criminals and serial killers.
I'm a moral being
Says who? If you ask me, atheism is immoral by definition and you support abortion and gay marriage, which I also consider immoral. Some people think homophobia is immoral, but I think it's a virtue. Without God, morality can be literally anything you want it to be - for example, the Nazis and Pol Pot thought it moral to murder millions of innocent people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2023 11:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2023 12:52 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 135 by Omnivorous, posted 12-16-2023 1:09 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 136 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-16-2023 1:24 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.1


(1)
Message 126 of 174 (913942)
12-14-2023 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
12-14-2023 7:33 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Are you saying there are no real churches?
All churches are Man-made. All religions are Man-made (despite any claims of being based on supernatural revelations, the "resultant" religions are still constructed through fallible human interpretation and extrapolation performed by fallible humans.
The problem is that so many believers believe in human INfallibility. T'ain't no such thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 127 of 174 (913945)
12-14-2023 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dredge
12-14-2023 9:16 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes:
If this life is all there is and all life-forms are the product of some mindless natural process, the life of a human has no more meaning than the life of a worm ... or a rock, for that matter.
You're making a category mistake. Worms are not conscious, we are. Worms have biological drives, humans have consciousness, we are capable of creating meaning - including creating gods to give us meaning if that's what it takes.
You're barking up the wrong tree here - I never claimed that atheists can't act morally. All career criminals and serial killers are atheists, but not all atheists are career criminals and serial killers.
Bollox, prisons are full of professing Christians - including plenty of Catholics. Do I need to bring up the thousand of Catholic child abusers?
Says who?
Says me and everyone that knows me.
If you ask me, atheism is immoral by definition
So now you have to explain why I'm immoral yet acting moral and explain the difference
and you support abortion and gay marriage, which I also consider immoral.
Some people think homophobia is immoral, but I think it's a virtue.
Who made you the arbiter of morality?
Without God, morality can be literally anything you want it to be
Of course it can't. Why would you say that, it makes no sense. Regardless of god - which god or no god - humans understand what is right and wrong and understand it at a very early age.
for example, the Nazis and Pol Pot thought it moral to murder millions of innocent people.
I have no idea whether they thought what they did was moral - I suspect not, they were probably both psychopaths - but I suspect that we both agree that they weren't acting morally. And I'm apparently immoral so how does that work?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2023 9:16 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2023 9:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 128 of 174 (913954)
12-15-2023 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Tangle
12-14-2023 12:52 PM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Tangle writes:
You're making a category mistake. Worms are not conscious, we are. Worms have biological drives, humans have consciousness, we are capable of creating meaning - including creating gods to give us meaning if that's what it takes.
Human conciousness doesn't alter the atheist perspective - ie, that humans are just one more random organism roaming the planet and that their existence has no more meaning than that of a worm. Human conciousness can be used to create the illogical delusion of meaning, or it can be used to come to the logical conclusion that life is meaningless.
Bollox
No bollox at all, it's quite true - people who fear God don't become career criminals and serial killers.
Here's an interesting fact: When someone is officially accepted into the Italian mafia (becomes a "made man") he recites an oath, which begins with "There is no God."
humans understand what is right and wrong and understand it at a very early age.
That is true to a certain degree, but mostly humans are taught what is "right and wrong" by some higher authority - parents or society or religion.
Humans can develop very diverse and conflicting ideas about what is "right and wrong". For example, if an equality-warrior went to a Muslim country and started publicly campaigning for gay marriage, he'd be promptly lynched by an angry mob (and rightly so). If you kill a cow in India for food, you could suffer a similar fate. A woman in Iran who doesn't wear a head-scarf can be jailed or even killed. As I said in my previous epistle, morality can be anything you want it to be.
explain why I'm immoral yet acting moral
Without God to decide what is objectively moral, morality is largely, subjective. What you consider to be "acting moral (sic)", could be someone else's idea of acting immorally - support for gay marriage and abortion come to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2023 12:52 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2023 10:11 AM Dredge has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 7.0


(5)
Message 129 of 174 (913955)
12-15-2023 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Dredge
12-15-2023 9:58 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes:
Human conciousness doesn't alter the atheist perspective
There's no such thing as an atheist perspective. Atheists don't have a belief in god(s). That's it nothing else. You can't say anything more about them, if that's all you know about them.
Human conciousness can be used to create the illogical delusion of meaning, or it can be used to come to the logical conclusion that life is meaningless.
Or that there's a god - it can make up any kind of nonsense, and it has - Catholicism being a fabulous example of made up nonsense.
No bollox at all, it's quite true - people who fear God don't become career criminals and serial killers.​
Wow... you're more delusional than I thought.
From Bing
According to a report by Statista, approximately 38,184 prisoners in England and Wales identified as being Christian in 2023, the most of any religious faith among prisoners. A further 26,715 identified as having no religion, while 15,271 identified as Muslims
Looks like you're just plain wrong, yet again. Bollox it is.
Without God to decide what is objectively moral, morality is largely, subjective. What you consider to be "acting moral (sic)", could be someone else's idea of acting immorally - support for gay marriage and abortion come to mind.
Morality is wholly subjective, always was, always will be. That's why it changes over time and differs between societies and civilisations. Sod all to do with invisible beings and ever changing Papal pronouncements.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2023 9:58 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Percy, posted 12-16-2023 7:15 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 132 by Dredge, posted 12-16-2023 12:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 130 of 174 (913961)
12-16-2023 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Tangle
12-15-2023 10:11 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Tangle in Message 127 writes:
humans understand what is right and wrong and understand it at a very early age.
Tangle in Message 129 writes:
Morality is wholly subjective, always was, always will be. That's why it changes over time and differs between societies and civilisations. Sod all to do with invisible beings and ever changing Papal pronouncements.
I agree that we understand right and wrong from a very early age, but it seems like after that it gets complicated. To me it seems like at a simplistic level morality has portions that are innate (theft, murder) and other portions that seem subjective or relative (eating cows, wearing a hijab). But murder isn't always wrong in some societies, for example advocating it as punishment for capital crimes, as in some states in the US. And theft isn't necessarily wrong in all circumstances, such as stealing Nazi gold during WWII.
But despite the complications I can't help feeling that some morality is innate for most people, almost as if we're born with it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2023 10:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2023 11:30 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 131 of 174 (913964)
12-16-2023 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Percy
12-16-2023 7:15 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
As far back as Darwin people imagined morality to be an evolved trait. Darwin thought it derived from empathy developed from social species.
These days it's believed to be partly instinctual (Darwin was smart) and partly learnt behaviour.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Percy, posted 12-16-2023 7:15 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 132 of 174 (913970)
12-16-2023 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Tangle
12-15-2023 10:11 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Tangled writes:
There's no such thing as an atheist perspective.
The atheist perspective is that humans are a product of the same mindless, aimless, meaningless natural process that produced grubs and potatoes and viruses.
According to a report by Statista, approximately 38,184 prisoners in England and Wales identified as being Christian in 2023, the most of any religious faith among prisoners. A further 26,715 identified as having no religion, while 15,271 identified as Muslims.
Those statistics don't disprove my claim that people who fear God don't become career criminals or serial killers. Firstly, the vast majority of jail inmates are neither career criminals, nor serial killers. Secondly, a jail inmate may be nominally Catholic (thru baptism), for example, but may not hold any Catholic beliefs at all and therefore has no fear of God.
As for all those jailed Catholic altar-boy molesters, it can be argued that none of them feared God ... bcoz they no longer believed in God and the need keep his commandments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2023 10:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2023 12:47 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 12-16-2023 12:56 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2023 2:50 PM Dredge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 133 of 174 (913972)
12-16-2023 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dredge
12-16-2023 12:25 PM


Re: Pope On A Rope
No True Scotsman fallacy

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dredge, posted 12-16-2023 12:25 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 134 of 174 (913974)
12-16-2023 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dredge
12-16-2023 12:25 PM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge in Message 132 writes:
Tangled writes:
There's no such thing as an atheist perspective.
The atheist perspective is that humans are a product of the same mindless, aimless, meaningless natural process that produced grubs and potatoes and viruses.
Atheism is not the study of human origins.
The scientific perspective is that the human species, indeed all species, are the result of natural processes.
According to a report by Statista, approximately 38,184 prisoners in England and Wales identified as being Christian in 2023, the most of any religious faith among prisoners. A further 26,715 identified as having no religion, while 15,271 identified as Muslims.
Those statistics don't disprove my claim that people who fear God don't become career criminals or serial killers.
It's interesting to see your claim evolve. You originally said, "All career criminals and serial killers are atheists..."
If you didn't invent your claim out of thin air then you should have no problem providing statistics supporting it. In the absence of such statistics, the numbers Tangle offered render your claim extremely unlikely.
Firstly, the vast majority of jail inmates are neither career criminals, nor serial killers.
Do you have a breakdown of the percentage of inmates by whether or not they're career criminals?
Concerning serial killers, you may recognize these names (from Serial Killers, Murderers and their Religion / Faith):
David BerkowitzRaised Jewish, baptised aged 20 and converted to Catholicism, but recently become a devout "born again Christian"
Jeffrey DahmerBorn into a devout family of the Stone-Campbell denomination known as the "Churches of Christ", he was an active churchgoer until age 5, renounced his religion (possibly owing to his sexuality) but was re-baptised during his incarceration
John Wayne GacyRaised into a devout Catholic family, went to private Christian school, and aged 18 he thought about becoming a priest
Ted BundyBaptised as a Mormon at the LDS Church, Salt Lake City in 1974 under the name of Theodore Robert Cowell, his name remains on the Mormon roll
Secondly, a jail inmate may be nominally Catholic (thru baptism), for example, but may not hold any Catholic beliefs at all and therefore has no fear of God.
As for all those jailed Catholic altar-boy molesters, it can be argued that none of them feared God ... bcoz they no longer believed in God and the need keep his commandments.n
Why do I have a feeling that for anyone who doesn't fit your claim you're going to qualify it with "not a true Catholic and therefore an atheist."
The real world is unlikely to oblige made up claims.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dredge, posted 12-16-2023 12:25 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 135 of 174 (913975)
12-16-2023 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dredge
12-14-2023 9:16 AM


Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes:
Without God, morality can be literally anything you want it to be - for example, the Nazis and Pol Pot thought it moral to murder millions of innocent people
And throughout the centuries, the Catholic Church has thought so, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2023 9:16 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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