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Author
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Topic: Atheists: Time to Come Out of the Closet!
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 80 of 174 (913793)
12-05-2023 12:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Dredge
12-05-2023 10:54 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Dredge:
If God said to me, "I'll give you 80 years of life, but that's all. There is no after-life", I would consider that 80 years of life just as meaningless as if there were no God at all. A finite life is meaningless; life has meaning only if it's eternal.
It's normal for hundreds of millions of people to get along perfectly well in life without being burdened by these after-life thoughts. What do you think you'd do differently if this god of yours revealed to you that this is all there is?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Dredge, posted 12-05-2023 10:54 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2023 12:39 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 85 of 174 (913804)
12-06-2023 1:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
12-05-2023 10:39 PM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: So to non believers, eternal life is expressed through ones offspring. Meaning originates and is defined by humans for humans from generation to generation. Not for this non-believer. There is no such thing as eternal life in any form. I expect my kids and grandkids will remember somethings about me but that's as far as it goes. My genes will live down the ages getting more and more diluted but that's of no interest to me; I am not my genes. Life is what we have, enjoy it anyway you can.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 10:39 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-06-2023 4:45 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 91 of 174 (913810)
12-06-2023 5:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
12-06-2023 4:45 PM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: If life is what you have, WHO or WHAT gave you what you have? My parents you clot. As for the rest, well, same bollox for the last 20 years.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-06-2023 4:45 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 101 of 174 (913844)
12-09-2023 7:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 100 by Dredge
12-09-2023 3:27 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Dredge writes: This is bullshit. Atheists don't believe in God because they don't want God in their lives. You have no idea what you're talking about. Atheists know that there isn't a god; it's got nothing to do with wanting anything.
It's got nothing to do with "evidence" - atheists see the same evidence of God as believers, but unlike believers, atheists wilfully choose to ignore that evidence. It's ALL about evidence. There is absolutely no evidence for your god, if there was we'd all be believers.
When I tell atheists about the two miracles that I personally experienced, they conclude I must be suffering some form of insanity - they don't believe me bcoz they don't want to believe me. Nobody believes you because you're not believable. It would be good if you started listening to atheists when they tell you why they're atheists instead of inventing stuff that's just wrong. Atheists are better sources of information on atheists that you are.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Dredge, posted 12-09-2023 3:27 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 107 of 174 (913898)
12-12-2023 3:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 106 by Dredge
12-12-2023 1:52 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
If this god of yours wishes to make his presence 'plain' why is he hiding?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by Dredge, posted 12-12-2023 1:52 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-12-2023 5:40 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 109 of 174 (913900)
12-12-2023 7:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-12-2023 5:40 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: I don't know about Dredge's god, but my version hides from you on purpose because he wants you to strive harder to find him rather than being arrogant enough to dismiss him and move on. My God won't give up on you, though. Does that make any kind of sense to you? Really? It doesn't to me it just sounds totally daft. Wouldn't it make more sense if your god said "hi, I'm god, let's go fishing, I need a chat" instead of deciding to hide in even more inaccessible places? I haven't dismissed this god of yours, he not there to dismiss. I haven't dismissed elves either - in my arrogance.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-12-2023 5:40 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 112 by Phat, posted 12-12-2023 11:47 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 115 of 174 (913910)
12-12-2023 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
12-12-2023 12:18 PM
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Re: Integrity Goes Further Than Anecdotes
Phat writes: Dredge gets mad that nobody will believe his conversion experience, but I had one too and I quite expect nobody to believe it. Why wouldn't we believe that you had a conversion experience? I'm sure you did. But it wasn't a real external thing - it's in your head. Millions of people believe all sorts of dumb things but they're all delusions. People that blow themselves and others up 'shouting god is great' believe dumb things very, very devoutly. I don't doubt their beliefs; I doubt their sanity. I don't get why you can't see this. After all there are millions who believe in a different god as firmly if not more firmly than you believe in the Jesus guy. You know they're wrong, just like we know that you're wrong. No difference at all. It's not a difficult point to understand, but it defeats all believers in all religions.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by Phat, posted 12-12-2023 12:18 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 116 by Phat, posted 12-12-2023 3:11 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 118 of 174 (913913)
12-12-2023 5:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
12-12-2023 3:11 PM
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Re: Integrity Goes Further Than Anecdotes
Phat writes: Because Jesus is not a relative God. Jesus is not the same "spirit" that Vishnu is. There is only One Spirit. He has many names. Wonderful Counselor. Mighty God. Prince Of Peace.(If Jesus were born today He would be born in the rubble of Gaza) Jesus is, was, and always will be God's character. Accept no substitutes. Especially the collective known as humanity. Because humanity needs Jesus. Not religion. There's absolutely no difference between your belief in Jesus and a Muslim's belief in Mohammed (peace be upon him). None. None at all. It's exactly the same. But you know it can't be don't you? Just exactly like they do. How do you explain that?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by Phat, posted 12-12-2023 3:11 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 121 of 174 (913925)
12-13-2023 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 120 by Dredge
12-13-2023 8:54 AM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes: If the "ultimate purpose" of life is meaninglessness, then life is meaningless from beginning to end. [...] If this life is all there is, doing evil things is as meaningless as doing good things in other words, morality is meaningless You're terrified of this idea aren't you? Which is a bit weird as those that know there is no god or afterlife couldn't give a hoot about it. How do you reconcile that Dredge? Quite obviously atheists have meaning in their lives and act as morally as anybody else. So where is this imaginary problem? It's no good asserting that these things don't exist without your imaginary spook, because it's easily demonstrated that they do - I'm a moral being and I have meaning in my life yet I don't believe in your hocus pocus. I guess that means you're wrong. Who knew?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by Dredge, posted 12-13-2023 8:54 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 125 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2023 9:16 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 127 of 174 (913945)
12-14-2023 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 125 by Dredge
12-14-2023 9:16 AM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes: If this life is all there is and all life-forms are the product of some mindless natural process, the life of a human has no more meaning than the life of a worm ... or a rock, for that matter. You're making a category mistake. Worms are not conscious, we are. Worms have biological drives, humans have consciousness, we are capable of creating meaning - including creating gods to give us meaning if that's what it takes.
You're barking up the wrong tree here - I never claimed that atheists can't act morally. All career criminals and serial killers are atheists, but not all atheists are career criminals and serial killers. Bollox, prisons are full of professing Christians - including plenty of Catholics. Do I need to bring up the thousand of Catholic child abusers?
Says who? Says me and everyone that knows me.
If you ask me, atheism is immoral by definition So now you have to explain why I'm immoral yet acting moral and explain the difference
and you support abortion and gay marriage, which I also consider immoral. Some people think homophobia is immoral, but I think it's a virtue.
Who made you the arbiter of morality?
Without God, morality can be literally anything you want it to be Of course it can't. Why would you say that, it makes no sense. Regardless of god - which god or no god - humans understand what is right and wrong and understand it at a very early age.
for example, the Nazis and Pol Pot thought it moral to murder millions of innocent people. I have no idea whether they thought what they did was moral - I suspect not, they were probably both psychopaths - but I suspect that we both agree that they weren't acting morally. And I'm apparently immoral so how does that work?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2023 9:16 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 128 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2023 9:58 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 129 of 174 (913955)
12-15-2023 10:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by Dredge
12-15-2023 9:58 AM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes: Human conciousness doesn't alter the atheist perspective There's no such thing as an atheist perspective. Atheists don't have a belief in god(s). That's it nothing else. You can't say anything more about them, if that's all you know about them.
Human conciousness can be used to create the illogical delusion of meaning, or it can be used to come to the logical conclusion that life is meaningless. Or that there's a god - it can make up any kind of nonsense, and it has - Catholicism being a fabulous example of made up nonsense.
No bollox at all, it's quite true - people who fear God don't become career criminals and serial killers. Wow... you're more delusional than I thought. From Bing According to a report by Statista, approximately 38,184 prisoners in England and Wales identified as being Christian in 2023, the most of any religious faith among prisoners. A further 26,715 identified as having no religion, while 15,271 identified as Muslims Looks like you're just plain wrong, yet again. Bollox it is.
Without God to decide what is objectively moral, morality is largely, subjective. What you consider to be "acting moral (sic)", could be someone else's idea of acting immorally - support for gay marriage and abortion come to mind. Morality is wholly subjective, always was, always will be. That's why it changes over time and differs between societies and civilisations. Sod all to do with invisible beings and ever changing Papal pronouncements.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2023 9:58 AM | | Dredge has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 131 of 174 (913964)
12-16-2023 11:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 130 by Percy
12-16-2023 7:15 AM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
As far back as Darwin people imagined morality to be an evolved trait. Darwin thought it derived from empathy developed from social species. These days it's believed to be partly instinctual (Darwin was smart) and partly learnt behaviour.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by Percy, posted 12-16-2023 7:15 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 137 of 174 (913984)
12-16-2023 2:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Dredge
12-16-2023 12:25 PM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes: The atheist perspective is that humans are a product of the same mindless, aimless, meaningless natural process that produced grubs and potatoes and viruses. Nope, that's your projection only. There is no atheist perspective. All an atheist is is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). You can't say anything else about them. I suspect most think no more about it.
Those statistics don't disprove my claim that people who fear God don't become career criminals or serial killers. Firstly, the vast majority of jail inmates are neither career criminals, nor serial killers. Secondly, a jail inmate may be nominally Catholic (thru baptism), for example, but may not hold any Catholic beliefs at all and therefore has no fear of God. Luckily for us, the jails are not full of serial killers but sadly they are full of career criminals and the majority of them are Christians. Whether they match your personal definition is irrelevant.
As for all those jailed Catholic altar-boy molesters, it can be argued that none of them feared God ... bcoz they no longer believed in God and the need keep his commandments. Total bollox, you're just making excuses.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Dredge, posted 12-16-2023 12:25 PM | | Dredge has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 141 of 174 (914007)
12-18-2023 4:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 138 by Dredge
12-17-2023 5:43 PM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes: As an atheist, you believe/accept that a mindless natural process that has no goal, purpose or direction produced all life on earth. You're in a terrible mess about this. Atheists do not believe in god(s) that's all. They do not believe in something else instead. Just like you not believing in elves doesn't mean that you're required to believe in fairies. Most atheists I know don't even think about it, they just accept that the religion they grew up with is nonsense and get on with their (meaningful) lives. God may or may not exist, but as he/she/it is totally absent, he/she or it is totally irrelevant to their lives. Personally, I do think about these things but I still don't accept your premise. I accept that evolution 'created' the plethora of species that exist on earth. As does your pope.
Such a process is meaningless, yet you claim that human life can have meaning.
Please explain how a meaningless process can produce something that has meaning. You're just playing with words. We create meaning. Totally inanimate objects can be given meaning, teddy bears, heirloom jewellery, rosary beads, homes. Meaning is a human invention made possible by the meaningless process of evolution which evolved consciousness. I take it that you've given up on your assertion that only atheists can be criminal.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by Dredge, posted 12-17-2023 5:43 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 153 of 174 (914030)
12-20-2023 2:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by Dredge
12-19-2023 7:22 PM
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Re: Pope On A Rope
Dredge writes: Yep ... take Pablo Escobar, for example ... a career criminal who was a devout, God-fearing "Catholic"; attended Mass every day. LOL. Well that's random - religious people can convince themselves of anything.
Even the “king of cocaine” needs to confess his sins.
And that’s exactly what the late Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos once persuaded the infamous Columbian drug lord Pablo Escobar to do.
After becoming Bishop of Pereira in 1976, one day he disguised himself as a milkman, travelled 5 hours by car to the legendary Hacienda Nápoles, and got access inside his home.
Once inside, he revealed himself as not a milkman but a Catholic Bishop, and demanded to see Pablo Escobar so he could persuade him to confess his sins.
Hoyos was successful in having him repent, and from time to time thereafter Pablo would donate to his diocesan charities.
He argued by accepting the drug money, it was diverted away from funding crime and instead helping the poor. This Priest Snuck Into Pablo Escobar’s Home to Make Him Confess His Sins | uCatholic
Your definition of a "Christian" is disingenuous. A Christian is someone who follows Christ, which means obeying Christ's commandments. Any so-called Christian who leads a life of crime is therefore not a Christian. To such, Christ will say, "I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoers." (Matt 7:23) By your definition, there are no Christians. All men are sinners. “For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard.” Romans 3,23 But apparently it doesn't matter “Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.” Wrong again then.
Nice strawman. That's not even close to my assertion, which is that people who fear God don't become career criminals or serial killers. Actually, you've changed what your assertion, I know I'm not supposed to notice, sorry.
Dredge:
All career criminals and serial killers are atheists, but not all atheists are career criminals and serial killers.
So still wrong, by far the majority of criminals are believers who have simply “strayed from the path” yet can still be saved. Or some such bollox.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by Dredge, posted 12-19-2023 7:22 PM | | Dredge has replied |
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