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Author Topic:   The Trump Post-Presidency and Insurrection
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 331 of 438 (914078)
12-22-2023 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by marc9000
12-22-2023 7:47 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 in Message 324 writes:
You don't like the law? In a nation of law you change it. You don't violently rebel and demand your own way.
Like the BLM riots of May and June of 2020? Far more people killed, far more money in damage than January 6th. Pretty well forgotten now, it got about .000001% of the mainstream media news coverage than does January 6th.
You're drawing a false comparison. The BLM riots were protests against racist law enforcement. January 6th was part of persistent effort by the Trump administration to steal an election and remain illegally in power, i.e., an insurrection.
Many BLM rioters were arrested and held accountable. Many January 6th rioters were arrested and held accountable. Trump might yet be held accountable, too, for defrauding the United States, for interfering with an official proceeding, and for engaging in insurrection.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 7:47 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9277
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 332 of 438 (914079)
12-22-2023 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by marc9000
12-22-2023 7:54 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
All 4 that voted in the majority have won election to retain their seats.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 7:54 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by marc9000, posted 12-26-2023 4:41 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 333 of 438 (914084)
12-23-2023 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by marc9000
12-22-2023 8:20 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 in Message 326 writes:
marc9000 writes:
Do you believe this action by those 4 unelected judges is a victory for democracy? Is the term "democracy" being re-defined?

As has already been explained, supreme court justices in Colorado are appointed to the bench for a 2-year period, after which they have to face a retainment election...
Who explained it? Theodoric?
What does it matter who explained it? As you told us later, "I understand all that." Apparently you're very well informed on the way justices are seated on the bench in all 50 states and were just pretending ignorance while making statements at odds with your understanding. Amazing! Myself, I had to look it up.
but it sounds like you believe that appointed judges are undemocratic.
They are when they try to interfere with a presidential election! Convicting someone of a crime that he hasn't even been charged with, let alone convicted of by any court of law.
Given that you "understand all that," this is remarkably uninformed. No one has been convicted of anything in Colorado. It's a civil case, not criminal. When someone is disqualified from the ballot because they are not yet 35 years of age, the age provided in the constitution, that's a civil matter, the same as when someone is disqualified from the ballot because they engaged in insurrection, something also specified in the constitution.
The reality is that there are both red and blue states that appoint their supreme court justices. Here's a table of how judges in each state become seated on the supreme court sorted by method. The "tnc" in "Governor appoints tnc" stands for "through nominating commission":
I understand all of that.
Not so as anyone could tell.
It just seems quite strange that the recent battle cry from many Democrats is that "Trump wants to destroy democracy!!!!", and then they do this unprecedented court ruling that destroys democracy.
Given that Trump is the first president in history to engage in insurrection, something unprecedented, isn't much that follows to deal with it also by necessity unprecedented?
It's true that not all Democrats did that, only four activist ones,...
For you an activist judge is one who rules in a way you don't like.
...but they are getting a lot of cheers throughout the Democrat base. Cheers for a thwarting of Democracy.
The Colorado ruling will eventually reach the Supreme Court, which will have to at least consider the question of whether Donald Trump engaged in insurrection (whether they choose to answer or not is another matter - they could let the lower court ruling stand, or send it back down for further consideration). This seems an important question to answer, because it's right there in the Constitution that those who have engaged in insurrection are disqualified from holding federal office.
You might want to reconsider your criteria for what constitutes a democracy.
And Democrats might want to reconsider accusing Trump of wanting to destroy democracy, then TURNING RIGHT AROUND and cheering when one of their own destroys democracy.
It's become very clear to everyone that Donald Trump isn't a big fan of democracy. Those who like Trump believe him when he says only he can solve the problems (many of which he makes up, but that's another matter), not because they believe he can maintain the honor and integrity of our democratic institutions.
The good thing is, two can play this game. Actually more than two, if the Colorado ruling holds up, four states so far are considering removing Biden from the ballot for allowing a hostile invasion at the southern border.
GOP state lawmakers work to remove Biden from ballot: 'We must fight back'
Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick floats taking Biden off state ballot after Colorado Trump ruling
<Quotes from articles removed for brevity>
They're all just following the Trump playbook. Whatever our guys done, let's claim their guy did it too.
I'm in favor of the rule of law. If some states remove Trump or Biden or anyone from the ballot and it is upheld by the courts, then the law has spoken and people have to accept that. They might not be happy about it, but doing things like rioting and breaking into the Capitol during a joint session of Congress is definitely anti-democratic.
I really hope the SCOTUS reigns in the arrogant Colorado court, before this all gets out of hand, and it becomes 1860 all over again.
It's been 1860 since the 2020 insurrection.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 8:20 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by marc9000, posted 12-26-2023 6:08 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(5)
Message 334 of 438 (914085)
12-23-2023 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by marc9000
12-22-2023 8:26 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
marc9000 in Message 327 writes:
marc9000 writes:
No they are appointed, and all of the Colorado ones were appointed by Democrat governors.

And all of the Florida supreme court justices were appointed by Republican governors.
But those Florida appointed ones haven't tried to stop Florida voters from voting for the presidential candidate of their choice, have they?
A court can only adjudicate cases that come before it. Has anyone brought such a case before the Florida Supreme Court? And as you've brought to our attention, red states have no compunction against trumping up charges against Biden to remove him from the ballet.
Your claim has no rational basis. Whatever criteria you think up for judging a governmental branch or body undemocratic will be true of both political parties when considered across all the states. Gerrymandering? Both parties do it. Appointing judges of their own party to the courts? Both parties do it. Passing legislation favorable to supporters? Both parties do it. Organizing slates of fake electors? Both parties...oh wait, not that one. Only Republicans do that.
Telling voters they can't vote for the presidential candidate of their choice, both parties.....oh wait, not that one. Only Democrats do that. SO FAR. "We must fight back".
It's actually, "We must fight back by contriving charges against Biden." What it should be is, "We will uphold the rule of law in our jurisdiction, regardless of what we view as corrupt behavior in other jurisdictions."
The difference between you and me is that if my guy had committed insurrection, I'd want him held accountable.
This hasn't come up yet, but it could, so just so you're not surprised, Biden is not my guy. He's okay, but I wish there were someone better. I oppose his policies on Israel and immigration and other things as well.
But Biden is the guy I'd vote for in a contest between he and Trump, in the same way that I'd vote for, say, Mitch McConnell over Matt Gaetz were there ever such a race. Biden and McConnell are both flawed candidates who nonetheless have a number of admirable traits. Trump and Gaetz have too many odious ones.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by marc9000, posted 12-22-2023 8:26 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by xongsmith, posted 12-25-2023 8:32 AM Percy has replied
 Message 345 by marc9000, posted 12-26-2023 6:37 PM Percy has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 335 of 438 (914092)
12-24-2023 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Percy
12-21-2023 3:51 PM


Re: Rudy Giuliani Declares Bankruptcy
More on Rudy and the defamation case and bankruptcy. Basically: he fucked himself in the lead up to the case by not co-operating with the court and bankruptcy probably won't get him out of paying Freeman and Moss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cdtXoP76qc

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Percy, posted 12-21-2023 3:51 PM Percy has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 336 of 438 (914095)
12-25-2023 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Percy
12-23-2023 9:04 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Percy notes, among other things,
"This hasn't come up yet, but it could, so just so you're not surprised, Biden is not my guy. He's okay, but I wish there were someone better."
So what do you think of Liz Warren?, let alone the Squad?

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Percy, posted 12-23-2023 9:04 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 12-25-2023 9:19 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 337 of 438 (914096)
12-25-2023 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by xongsmith
12-25-2023 8:32 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
xongsmith writes:
So what do you think of Liz Warren?, let alone the Squad?
This is just my opinion, but I look at both parties and all I see is a desert as far as presidential material goes. The Democrats seemed like a bunch of well-meaning incompetents, while the Republicans seem energetic and motivated but crazed with hate for the libs and seeing compromise as an expletive. A good campaign slogan for them would be "My way or the highway."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by xongsmith, posted 12-25-2023 8:32 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-25-2023 10:06 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 339 by Rahvin, posted 12-25-2023 10:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4501
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 338 of 438 (914097)
12-25-2023 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Percy
12-25-2023 9:19 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
A good campaign slogan for them would be "My way or the highway."
More like "OUR way or we'll burn the government to the fucking ground and kill every Lib!!!!!"

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 12-25-2023 9:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 339 of 438 (914105)
12-25-2023 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Percy
12-25-2023 9:19 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
The Republican MAGA faction is full mask-off fascist. They meet every single defining aspect of fascism, they're generally idiots, and hatemongering relies on emotion and is unfortunately often successful.
The Republican "sane" faction is still mostly fascist but is primarily self-serving powermongers who are perfectly comfortable using elements of fascism to acquire and achieve power, and their primary goal is the enrichment of the alread-wealthy.
The Democrat "progressives" are just-left-of-center and a minority that holds barely any power. They aren't socialist, not "true" leftists in any sense, but they're the closest we have in mainstream American politics. They'd like to reign in capitalism a bit, reduce the effects of the oligarchy, let workers unionize, possibly maybe socialize healthcare.
The "mainstream" Democrats, the ones in control of the party organization, are status-quo powermongers and are basically "fascist-lite." They know what's worked in the past and they're used to using culture-war tactics the same as the "sane" Republicans, just on the side that happens to benefit regular people more. I honestly can;t say whether any of them actually *believe* in what they talk about, because they so rarely make an actual effort to progress. They don't meet all of the characteristics of fascism, but they often meet several.
The reality of American politics is that it's all ruled by money, and few politicians keep their hands clean and their ideals intact, if they had them in the first place. Oligarchs and oligarch-funded interest groups make the real decisions, and American democracy is primarily based around the *illusion* of choice - we're only allowed to vote from among a pre-selected group of candidates, ones who are already primed and selected to support the status quo with very little change. There's no grand conspiracy here either - its a function of a two-party system and allowing money in politics to the degree that we do. You need money to run, oligarchs and corporate and special interests have money, they get an immediate overwhelming advantage in promoting candidates *they* would prefer in the primary stage and earlier. There's a reason that studies show that Americans don't get what we want from our legislators, even when an overwhelming majority of us agree, unless it just so happens to coincide with what the moneyed interests also want. If we want something and money says no, then we dont get it even if 70%+ of voters support it.
Change *is* possible - the Republicans in the space of around a decade were moved hard right but what started as the Tea Party and mutated into MAGA.
But there are precious few lawmakers who actually appear to care in any significant sense about the wellbeing of "regular" people. Words, rarely action.
On the domestic front I'll admit to having been pleasantly surprised by some of Biden's accomplishments, specifically relating to labor unions.
But of course American foreign policy between the two parties seems to range from "we're monsters but once a century or so can almost accidentally do something good" to "let's see if we can burn the world down, either for increased quarterly profits or to bring Jesus back."
I've always voted with Democrats as a "lesser of two evils," but lately given current events I find it impossible to voice a defense that they're actually "lesser." I'm aware of the differences but given the Democrats repeated lack of *actual action* to accomplish the things they run on, they ring hollow. I know Republicans would be worse, especially MAGA maniacs, but it's hard not to go full "doomer" right now. My cynicism has been escalating exponentially since Trump won the Presidency, and so far reality continues to still surprise and disappoint me.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 12-25-2023 9:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 12-26-2023 8:59 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 340 of 438 (914106)
12-26-2023 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Rahvin
12-25-2023 10:22 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Rahvin in Message 339 writes:
The Republican MAGA faction is full mask-off fascist. They meet every single defining aspect of fascism,...
I'd be curious to see an actual list of qualities.
The Republican "sane" faction is still mostly fascist...
...
The "mainstream" Democrats, the ones in control of the party organization, are status-quo powermongers and are basically "fascist-lite."
I agree with Heinlein that desiring office should be disqualifying. Political officers should have to be carried kicking and screaming into office. Candidates would be drafted by nominating committees, and they would then go about the country explaining why they shouldn't be forced into office, for instance describing how totally unfair it is for this to happen to them yet again just because they didn't prove to be a total disaster in their previous office, that they would like nothing more but to go back to the job they loved slopping pigs on their small family farm.
The reality of American politics is that it's all ruled by money,...
Thank you, Supreme Court.
But there are precious few lawmakers who actually appear to care in any significant sense about the wellbeing of "regular" people. Words, rarely action.
True.
On the domestic front I'll admit to having been pleasantly surprised by some of Biden's accomplishments, specifically relating to labor unions.
Immigration, Israel, homelessness, EV's.
I've always voted with Democrats as a "lesser of two evils," but lately given current events I find it impossible to voice a defense that they're actually "lesser."...but it's hard not to go full "doomer" right now.
I'm disappointed, too. We want a country that works toward making the world a better place. Ours isn't. We want a political environment that yields governments that have the concerns of their citizens uppermost in their minds. Ours don't.
But I'm not ready to stoke the flames by voting for Darth Traitor. I'd feel guilty and dirty every day afterward.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Rahvin, posted 12-25-2023 10:22 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Rahvin, posted 12-26-2023 2:44 PM Percy has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 341 of 438 (914107)
12-26-2023 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Percy
12-26-2023 8:59 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
quote:
I'd be curious to see an actual list of qualities.
Ill just copy a rundown I did in a reply to Phat some time ago. There are several other definitions out there, but a reading of any should make any American feel...uncomfortable.
My rundown of Fascism to Phat a few months ago:
Fascism (and authoritarianism) is not "a government I dont like." It isnt even "a government with too many rules that restrict my freedom," though the political party seeking to restrict freedoms is the Republican party anyway.

Fascism has a set of characteristics. Both the Republicans and the Democrats meet some of these, to different degrees. The Democrats in general are fascist-lite. Reason to be concerned. The Trump-wing Republicans are full Nazi. Godwin's Law be damned, we're literally seeing the rise of fascism in the US, and it echoes its rise in Germany after WW1 with terrifying precision.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

"America first" has been the American-fascist slogan since forever. "Christian Nationalists" should sound familiar.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Again American conservatives are clearly embracing this one. They've supported overturning Roe v Wade forever. Theyre currently fearmongering against Trans rights (which are human rights). They've often supported literal actual torture (waterboarding, other "enhanced interrogation" techniques). They deny people their rights at the border (for all the panic about "caravans," these people were actually using the legal process they were entitled to - you present yourself at a border for consideration for refugee status, there's nothing illegal there).

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Today the Trans community appears to be the primary scapegoat. The very people you've mentioned as respecting promote anti-Trans propaganda. Tans people are not "groomers." Drag performers (who are mostly not Trans anyway) are not "groomers."

Supremacy of the Military

Do I even need to say anything here? Both parties are guilty of this one, but the Trump wing tries to go even further.

Rampant Sexism

Jordan Peterson is a good example of a manosphere misogynist. There are plenty of other examples. Democrats can be sexist too, but Republicans make the oppression of women through the enforcement of rigid traditional gender roles a party platform.

Controlled Mass Media

Trump and his cronies have been setting up their own media platforms for a while now, to out-fascist even Fox News. The news media in America has always been problematic - they're more about preserving the status quo, maintaining existing power structures and manufacturing consent, than about actually informing the public - but the outrage-fueled modern 24-hr news media has been leaning harder and harder to the right.
Edit for the current reply: I was too kind to the history of American media. "Problematic" was an understatement. Most of the media is another arm of oligarchy that works to manufacture consent for the outrageously vile foreign policy of the US. It is extremely difficult to find actual reporting where biases are minimized, and usually requires looking at how the same story is covered both by American media and a variety of international sources, preferably ones who have no horse in the race. Reuters and Associated press are better than the outlets that pick them up, but they dont have cable networks and are still insufficient alone.

Obsession with National Security

Ironic that Trump, arguably the largest threat to national security in our country's history, has always clamored for more authority to punish people for endangering it. Both the Republicans and Democrats love this one though - always wanting more police authority to strengthen the surveillance state.

Religion and Government are Intertwined

Christian Nationalists, again. The Democrats at least want actual religious freedom, meaning they support everyone's right to believe or not believe according to the dictates of their own conscience, and they recognize that this means government needs to just stay out of the matter. The Republicans only respect the freedom to worship Jesus however you please, and actively seek to ensconce their religious beliefs in law. The Trumpists are literally the American Taliban. They want the Christian version of Sharia Law.

Corporate Power is Protected

Both the Republicans and the Democrats are guilty here. America is an oligarchy more than anything else; especially since Citizens United (but before that too), the wealthy play both sides of the political aisle.

This is why there are no actual socialists in American government, Phat, no matter what Fox News has told you.

Labor Power is Suppressed

Both parties again, but again the Republicans are worse. American union movements have stagnated, in part because our labor protection laws are pathetic.
Edit for current reply: the Biden admin did make some very meaningful changes to the way unions can be formed, effectively changing the default to recognize the union unless the corporation can effectively argue against its formation, rather than the historical method where the default was that no union would be recognized unless the union could effectively justify itself. Considering the balance of power with newly-forming unions, this is huge, unironically one of the most important labor changes since before Reagan.

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

The Trump wing wins "bigly" here as well.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment

"Law and order" anyone?

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

For all the conservative winging about Hunter Biden and his sinister laptop, Hunter has never actually held any US government office.

Trump was all about appointing family to government positions. And his management style is the textbook definition of cronyism.

Fraudulent Elections

Trump and conservatives literally tried to overthrow a legal election by claiming a non-fraudulent election was fraudulent, simply because he lost. And he knew he lost. And he admitted he knew he lost, and lied about it anyway.

America has been sinking into fascism for years now. The Democrats are fascist-lite. The Republicans are completely fascist.
quote:
Immigration, Israel, homelessness, EV's.
The Israel issue is the area where I feel the most disgust, shame, and disappointment. Killing noncombatant civilians is evil, full stop. The US is providing munitions to a state that can only rationally be described as committing genocide, and on top of that we're running interference in the UN to prevent any manner of actual consequences. The 10 stages of genocide are absolutely gut-wrenching when you compare it against what is currently happening and what has been happening for decades.
quote:
But I'm not ready to stoke the flames by voting for Darth Traitor. I'd feel guilty and dirty every day afterward.
There's absolutely no chance that I vote for Orange Hitler, who is somehow taking the mask even *more* off lately.
I just don't feel a lot better about voting for Biden. The mathematical situation related to American elections puts us in a terrible spot even outside of the money issue, which makes things worse.
I very much want to feel hopeful. I find it very difficult as I continue to see images of children being bombed with weapons made and paid for by my tax dollars, or Israeli politicians and diplomats who are literally actually calling for the extermination of an entire ethnic group, for which there can be absolutely *no* excuse. This is like Tony Stark in the first Iron Man, except I'm not the CEO of the company making the weapons.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 12-26-2023 8:59 AM Percy has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 342 of 438 (914110)
12-26-2023 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Theodoric
12-22-2023 9:18 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
All 4 that voted in the majority have won election to retain their seats.
Not an actual election against an opposing candidate, just a "yes or no" vote. Very little similarity. They were initially appointed.
quote:
The justices serve for an initial two years – and then Colorado voters decide on a yes-or-no ballot whether to keep them for a subsequent 10-year term, according to state law. This is different from some states, where they run head-to-head against an opposing judicial candidate.
Fact check: Are Colorado Supreme Court justices ‘unelected,’ as GOP has claimed? | CNN Politics.
Why yes, CNN, they are. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2023 9:18 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2023 6:15 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 348 by Percy, posted 12-27-2023 12:40 PM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 343 of 438 (914111)
12-26-2023 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Percy
12-23-2023 8:33 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
Percy writes:
As has already been explained, supreme court justices in Colorado are appointed to the bench for a 2-year period, after which they have to face a retainment election...
marc9000 writes:
Who explained it? Theodoric?

What does it matter who explained it?
It matters because it was ME who explained it. You verified what I said just after Theodoric declared that I was "wrong". Then I put up a link proving what I said, and Theodoric doubled down, and you never corrected him. It's how it works here, a lot of fun for me. ANYTHING I say here is automatically wrong, even if about 100 million other U.S. voters agree with me. I could tell you that school buses are yellow, and you would declare that they're actually blue with pink stripes, I'd laugh and disengage, and you'd get a dozen green dots. How can I resist sometimes posting here?
As you told us later, "I understand all that." Apparently you're very well informed on the way justices are seated on the bench in all 50 states and were just pretending ignorance while making statements at odds with your understanding. Amazing! Myself, I had to look it up.
I'm very well informed on how little it matters, in this discussion, all the complex details on how justices are seated in all 50 states, how little it matters in this discussion how each side of the political aisle tries to use those complex details to further their party's policies. And I'm very well informed on how little those complex details matter in the very simple choice between appointed judges deciding an issue versus voters deciding an issue.
Given that you "understand all that," this is remarkably uninformed. No one has been convicted of anything in Colorado. It's a civil case, not criminal. When someone is disqualified from the ballot because they are not yet 35 years of age, the age provided in the constitution, that's a civil matter, the same as when someone is disqualified from the ballot because they engaged in insurrection, something also specified in the constitution.
There is a world of difference between a question of someone's age versus the very subjective opinions on whether someone committed "insurrection" or not. You seem to be saying that it's an undisputed fact that Trump committed an insurrection. Averaging together all the dictionary definitions of "insurrection" make it clear that an insurrectionist is present at an insurrection, that there is a well defined plan, and organization, for how the takeover is supposed to work. Trump wasn't present at the January 6th riot, and the couple of rag-tag organizations (Proud Boys, etc) that were present showed no indication that they had any kind of plan once they got inside the capitol. The only reason the word "insurrection" is a popular accusation for January 6th is because the far left seized upon the term before the clock struck midnight the morning of January 7th, knowing that it was in the 14th amendment which made it the perfect weapon for them. All they had to do was repeat it over and over and over and over and over again in the coming years in news reports, while carefully hiding the fact that the term was originally applied to the Confederacy, with all its organization, and weaponry. Applied for the sole purpose of helping to keep the defeated Confederacy from hindering the reconstruction process. The constant repetition of the term has worked well for the Trump-hating left emotionally, but not factually. Repeating something over and over and over and over again doesn't necessarily make it more true.
If "insurrection" was an undisputed fact in Trump's case, why haven't 49 other states done the same thing Colorado did? The presidential election is a national one, if the opinions of only one out of 50 states were up to a vote, it would be a landslide victory for the no insurrection opinion. There should be one criteria for who a presidential candidate is, not different ones for different states. States don't decide how many Senators they can have, as one example. Section 8 of the Constitution says that "....all Duties, Imposts, and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States..." UNIFORM is the key word. It makes sense that if some things should be uniform throughout the U.S., the presidential election also should be. It shouldn't be up to one state to deny millions of voters their choice on who one party's candidate is. I think we'll see the SCOTUS rule that way soon.
Percy writes:
The reality is that there are both red and blue states that appoint their supreme court justices. Here's a table of how judges in each state become seated on the supreme court sorted by method. The "tnc" in "Governor appoints tnc" stands for "through nominating commission":
marc9000 writes:
I understand all of that.

Not so as anyone could tell.
Anyone should be able to tell that you're making it way too complicated. Whether judges decide an issue versus voters deciding an issue is a simple matter.
Given that Trump is the first president in history to engage in insurrection, something unprecedented, isn't much that follows to deal with it also by necessity unprecedented?
It could be if he were convicted by a proper court of law, involving a lot of people, including a jury of his peers. He has not been so convicted, or formally charged.
The Colorado ruling will eventually reach the Supreme Court, which will have to at least consider the question of whether Donald Trump engaged in insurrection (whether they choose to answer or not is another matter - they could let the lower court ruling stand, or send it back down for further consideration). This seems an important question to answer, because it's right there in the Constitution that those who have engaged in insurrection are disqualified from holding federal office.
Again, that's the reason the left jumped on the term "insurrection", they're afraid of what might happen if VOTERS get to decide if Trump holds federal office again.
It's become very clear to everyone that Donald Trump isn't a big fan of democracy. Those who like Trump believe him when he says only he can solve the problems (many of which he makes up, but that's another matter), not because they believe he can maintain the honor and integrity of our democratic institutions.
All Trump is ever attacked on is his words, not any of his presidential actions during his first term. His presidential actions, while many of his haters disapproved of them, were no more earthshaking or unusual than any previous U.S. president. Considering his recent approval ratings versus those of Biden's makes it clear to everyone (except Biden's base) that their lives were better under the Trump administration than they are under the first three years of Biden. The rich haven't been destroyed, (a wet dream of Democrats for well over 100 years) and the poor are now poorer now than they were under Trump. Many Trump supporters don't tend to worship the integrity of "democratic institutions", because many of them are nothing more than Democrat party bureaucracies that were rammed through whenever the Democrats had the political power to do it.
They're all just following the Trump playbook. Whatever our guys done, let's claim their guy did it too.
These accusations always go both ways. Biden and the mainstream news media have a "playbook".
I'm in favor of the rule of law. If some states remove Trump or Biden or anyone from the ballot and it is upheld by the courts, then the law has spoken and people have to accept that. They might not be happy about it, but doing things like rioting and breaking into the Capitol during a joint session of Congress is definitely anti-democratic.
As were the BLM riots. They were anti-democratic. They should have gotten the same amount of news coverage that January 6th did, and continues to get. . It's also anti-democratic for one political party to condone ILLEGAL immigration. January 6th is in the past, the BLM riots are in the past, illegal immigration is in the PRESENT. It needs to be addressed, not largely covered up by the mainstream media.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Percy, posted 12-23-2023 8:33 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by nwr, posted 12-26-2023 9:37 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 349 by Percy, posted 12-27-2023 4:42 PM marc9000 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9277
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 344 of 438 (914113)
12-26-2023 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by marc9000
12-26-2023 4:41 PM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
So they are elected.
We should ignore US Supreme Court decisions since they are unelected?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by marc9000, posted 12-26-2023 4:41 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by marc9000, posted 12-26-2023 6:44 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 345 of 438 (914114)
12-26-2023 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Percy
12-23-2023 9:04 AM


Re: Trump Support Tends Toward the Violent and Undemocratic
A court can only adjudicate cases that come before it. Has anyone brought such a case before the Florida Supreme Court? And as you've brought to our attention, red states have no compunction against trumping up charges against Biden to remove him from the ballet.
It's easy for anyone to see Biden's responsibility for the serious problems at the southern border. It's also easy to see that Biden and others in Democrat leadership WANT illegal immigration. The way they bring legal charges against the state of Texas for taking matters into its own hands as it tries to do what Biden should be doing. Biden and his handlers are a little nervous now, they thought it would just be a nice steady flow during his entire administration, they didn't expect it to get this far out of control. Fox News has been showing video of some of the marches, some of the illegals are taking selfies of themselves, largely to send to their friends and relatives wherever they may be all over the world, saying "see how easy this is, COME ON DOWN!". And they are, in record numbers that even Democrats couldn't imagine. Today's internet and cell phone technology are still somewhat in their infancy, similar to the way gasoline powered cars and trucks were in the 1920's and 30's. Recent technology can affect things in unpredictable ways. The mainstream media can only partially cover it up, they have to skim over it at least, every week or two, but that still might not be enough to keep them from losing viewers and readers to alternate sources of news.
It's actually, "We must fight back by contriving charges against Biden." What it should be is, "We will uphold the rule of law in our jurisdiction, regardless of what we view as corrupt behavior in other jurisdictions."
The southern border problems are not contrived. Biden's economic conditions versus those of the Trump administration aren't contrived, they're right there for anyone to see.
The difference between you and me is that if my guy had committed insurrection, I'd want him held accountable.
There you go with your favorite word again. The way the U.S. government works was not changed one scintilla by anything about January 6th. Trump voluntarily left the white house when his one term was up. There was a LOT of change and reconstruction after the Confederacy was defeated.
This hasn't come up yet, but it could, so just so you're not surprised, Biden is not my guy. He's okay, but I wish there were someone better. I oppose his policies on Israel and immigration and other things as well.
I'm not surprised, I've never noticed you taking a firm position on anything. I'd like to see Trump do a 'Grover Cleveland'. The parties were reversed back then, Cleveland was a Democrat, the one in the middle of his terms was Benjamin Harrison, a Republican. I did a little checking, there was an economic "panic" in the later part of Harrison's term, but it doesn't look to me like he screwed things up anything like Biden has so far.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Percy, posted 12-23-2023 9:04 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Percy, posted 12-27-2023 6:02 PM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
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