Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9174 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,605 Year: 4,862/9,624 Month: 210/427 Week: 20/103 Day: 0/9 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 224 of 378 (913689)
11-29-2023 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Phat
11-29-2023 8:08 AM


Re: To The Victors Go The Spoils
Phat writes:
Israel will have to try really hard to lose this war.
It's less a war and more just ongoing hostilities with peaks and valleys of intensity.
That fact might eventually happen in the court of public opinion.
Israel lost years ago in the court of public opinion. All they're doing now is confirming people's judgments.
The Palestinian cause is boosted by an outstanding public relations campaign.
No public relations campaign necessary. Just point a camera.
Only Israel can fix Israel. If they, as a people, focus on healing their national soul, they may become repentant.
No repentance necessary. All Israel need do is cease mistreating and committing atrocities against the Palestinian people.
I agree that one must turn the other cheek in regard to the Palestinians.
I never suggested Israel should turn the other cheek. They have every right to defend themselves, but only in ways that are not war crimes.
One question is: Who will pay to reconstruct Palestine?
The Palestinians themselves and their benefactors will pay, such as Iran.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 11-29-2023 8:08 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 4:44 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 227 of 378 (913693)
11-29-2023 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by marc9000
11-29-2023 4:32 PM


Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
You should find someone who actually made the arguments you're responding to.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 4:32 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 228 of 378 (913694)
11-29-2023 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by marc9000
11-29-2023 4:44 PM


Re: To The Victors Go The Spoils
marc9000 in Message 226 writes:
Percy writes:
Phat writes:
That fact might eventually happen in the court of public opinion.

Israel lost years ago in the court of public opinion. All they're doing now is confirming people's judgments.
Then why does Biden, and about half the Democrat party, continue to support them?
How is this question a reasonable follow-up to what I just said, or even make sense? Why are you putting this in a purely American context?
It is true that the other half of Democrats, largely college students, continue to march and protest anything Israel does at places like Harvard, and many other universities. It's interesting that these students are brainwashed by college professors, most of whom aren't Muslims, but are atheists. There seems to be an increasing camaraderie and unification of Muslims and atheists. It's the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" pharse. They're unified in their hatred of Judeo-Christianity.
You've been watching too many YouTube videos again.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 4:44 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 7:18 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 234 of 378 (913702)
11-30-2023 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by marc9000
11-29-2023 7:18 PM


Re: To The Victors Go The Spoils
You combined two different conversations, one with Phat, one with you. They have two different contexts. Phat was talking of world opinion, or so it seemed, so I replied in that context, and then you replied to that as if it were a purely American context, not to mention assigning me leanings and views I do not hold.
About your issues with WNT, that's a continuing theme for you. Maybe you should open a thread about it where it would be on-topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 7:18 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 12-01-2023 7:35 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(4)
Message 236 of 378 (913776)
12-04-2023 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by AZPaul3
11-14-2023 1:20 PM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
I somehow missed this and it deserves an answer:
AZPaul3 in Message 182 writes:
So in this case we should do or not do what? What actions should we take to avoid playing any role, directly or indirectly, in crimes against humanity that may be taking place in both Israel and Gaza today?
I believe we should cease all military and diplomatic support for Israel while they are committing war crimes. We should recall our ambassador. We should introduce a declaration of condemnation in the UN Security Council.
We should also provide humanitarian support for the Palestinians. If there's a practical way to defend them militarily then we should do that, too.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 1:20 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-04-2023 8:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 11:10 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 239 of 378 (913791)
12-05-2023 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
12-05-2023 11:10 AM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
I think we as a nation should support life, peace, liberty, freedom and prosperity throughout the world. Those are impossible ideals, of course, but would probably serve very well for guiding policy decisions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 11:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 11:45 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 242 of 378 (913796)
12-05-2023 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
12-05-2023 11:45 AM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
Phat in Message 240 writes:
Percy in Message 239 writes:
I think we as a nation should support life, peace, liberty, freedom and prosperity throughout the world.
The world demands that we pick a side. Why are there two sides in today's world?
Concerning issues like whether human beings have a right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," or however one chooses to put it, there are no sides. For example, people can legitimately take political sides and believe Trump the best candidate for president while still rejecting the inhumane belief that it's okay to treat illegal immigrants as lesser human beings.
Concerning the Middle East conflict, Palestinians are human beings with all the rights and privileges thereunto appertaining. Killing them is wrong, even those who are enthusiastic supporters of Hamas and all its crimes. There is almost no legitimate reason for killing another human being. One of them is that they're combatants aligned against you. Few Palestinians fit this category, and especially not the 11,000+ Palestinian women and children killed so far.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 12-05-2023 11:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 244 of 378 (913800)
12-06-2023 7:57 AM


Baby Steps
It's only one small action, but it's important in that it gives expression to our belief that Israeli treatment of West Bank Palestinians is wrong: US announces visa bans after warning Israel over West Bank violence. Those suspected of violating the rights of or committing violence against Palestinians on the West Bank can no longer obtain American visas.
The next baby step would be to expand the action to include those who dispossess Palestinians of their property, by whatever means.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2023 2:49 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 247 of 378 (913842)
12-08-2023 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phat
12-08-2023 2:49 PM


Re: Baby Steps
Phat in Message 246 writes:
I DO believe that the IDF is not some wanton group of thugs intent on genocide.
Call them whatever you like, they're still committing war crimes. There is no section in the laws of war titled "Situations of Military Necessity Justifying the Wholesale Murder of Civilians".
I believe that Hamas was and is so entrenched in the civilian population (which is a tool for ideological protest) that Israel won't play nice.
"Not playing nice" is a very misleading synonym for "murdering civilians".
They may end up killing the patient to extract the cancer.
Genocide is a war crime.
And the probability is high that the cancer will regrow, given the trauma that the civilian population is facing.
Yes, of course.
I believe that Israel is waging the war the way that it must be waged to eradicate the current cancer of Hamas.
Eradication how, given what you just said about the high probability of Israeli war crimes driving further terrorism?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2023 2:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 248 of 378 (913846)
12-09-2023 8:00 AM


We're Complicit

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 12-11-2023 2:30 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 250 of 378 (913892)
12-11-2023 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
12-11-2023 2:30 PM


Re: We're Complicit
Phat in Message 249 writes:
I have just two questions. How is Israel going to get rid of Hamas?
Israel has cultivated Palestinian hatred for decades, forging the bonds that constrain any solutions today. I have no answers for Israel, but if there is an answer then I am certain that the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza is not it.
It isn't easy to destroy a people. If Israel thinks they will destroy the Palestinians forever then they need only look to their own history to see their folly.
Also, who is going to rebuild Gaza?
I have no idea who will rebuild Gaza. I know who *should* rebuild Gaza. Israel.
The UN has two rogue governments to contend with.
Netanyahu
Hamas
Netanyahu is a head of government but is not himself a government. Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government. You should include the US on your list for being an Israel enabler, the most recent example being the veto of the cease-fire resolution in the Security Council. Our reasoning? It didn't include our proposed language.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 12-11-2023 2:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:20 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 252 of 378 (913948)
12-14-2023 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
12-14-2023 7:20 AM


Re: Both sides are guilty.
Phat in Message 251 writes:
Percy writes:
Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a government.
This is not true. Hamas is the acting government of Palestine.
See if you still hold that opinion after I've provided a very brief history. In 2006 Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) running on a platform of peace and reconciliation. They lied, and there hasn't been an election since. The PLC's activities were suspended in 2007 and remain so today.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to call Hamas a terrorist organization that runs Gaza for its own benefit in its campaign against Israel?
Even if the PLC were still active, wouldn't that at best make Hamas only a political party, not a government?
Also, as noted in earlier messages, Gaza and the West Bank are in a sort of nether status as a country. It's complicated.
By the way, you meant Gaza, not Palestine.
Both sides should be complicit in this particular case. The US suggested that to the UN but was unsuccessful.
No, the US did not suggest language saying that both sides should be held complicit. The US language included a condemnation of Hamas. Is the source of your misinformation YouTube videos again?
This whole idea of protecting only the weak is the same mentality that is wrong with defunding the police and allowing crimes against businesses to escalate.
More YouTube video misinformation?
What's so wrong with condemning Hamas?
No one here said anything was wrong with condemning Hamas. Why would any decent person not condemn Hamas's murderous attack upon Israel? Don't mistake severe criticism of Israel's decades long maltreatment of Palestinians as an endorsement of Hamas.
You act as if they have a right to be a terrorist organization (and a government) as much as shoplifters have a right to steal.
No one here said or implied that Hamas has a right to be a terrorist organization. I think you must be confused by comments pointing out that Israel's maltreatment of Palestinians breeds terrorists.
And no one here has ever suggested that shoplifters have a right to steal (it's off-topic anyway).
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 12-14-2023 7:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 01-15-2024 1:34 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 254 of 378 (914200)
01-02-2024 12:49 PM


This Is Who We Are
An editorial in today's New York Times recounts some details about objections within government to Israel's war in Gaza. From U.S.-Israel Relationship Shows Signs of Strain Amid War Against Hamas - The New York Times:
quote:
Mr. Biden has seen growing internal resistance to his backing of Israel, including multiple dissent cables from State Department diplomats. In November, more than 500 political appointees and staff members representing some 40 government agencies sent a letter to Mr. Biden protesting his support of Israel’s war in Gaza. Congressional Democrats have been pressing him to curb Israel’s assault, and the United States has found itself at odds with other countries at the United Nations.
About our treatment of migrants at the border I keep saying, "This is not who we are." But now we're supporting Israel in its murderous war, and yesterday I read an editorial about the possibility that Trump might be reelected, despite his hateful, venomous, autocratic and vengeful approach to governing. It said that if despite all that Trump is reelected then we have face facts: This is who we are.
Trump possibly reelected? Biden supporting the slaughter of innocents? Both Biden and Trump subjecting immigrants to inhumane treatment? Trump abandoning our allies and embracing dictators?
Maybe this *is* who we are.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Rahvin, posted 01-03-2024 12:19 PM Percy has replied
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 02-04-2024 1:47 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 256 of 378 (914214)
01-04-2024 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Rahvin
01-03-2024 12:19 PM


Re: This Is Who We Are
There needs to be a guidebook for government called, "What To Do When An Ally Goes Bad".
And it should be translated into the languages of all our allies so they know what to do with us.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Rahvin, posted 01-03-2024 12:19 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Rahvin, posted 01-04-2024 12:35 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 260 of 378 (914419)
01-15-2024 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
01-15-2024 1:34 PM


Re: World War III is Nearly Inevitable
PRESENT THE INFORMATION AND USE THE LINK AS A REFERENCE.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 01-15-2024 1:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024