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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
dwise1
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Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 35 of 472 (872668)
03-01-2020 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
03-01-2020 7:05 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Why do you always try to frame things as either a zero sum condition or an either/or choice.
Do you think people are really so limited?
Adding to the adage that women have a crayon box with 32 colors and men one with only 8 colors, could we say that religionists only have a Sharpie and White-out?

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 Message 34 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 7:05 PM jar has not replied

  
dwise1
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Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 109 of 472 (872869)
03-05-2020 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
02-28-2020 8:06 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a philosopher!
I never had no truck with philosophers. But this I remember hearing.
Maybe it was Plato or some such dude (hard to tell them apart when they're all wearing the same bedsheets) . There's a color, Blue. Somewhere, there must exist some abstract concept, Blue, which is some kind of archetype or whatever which absolutely and completely embodied that entire concept of blueness.
This entire jack-off/circle-jerk exercise about some kind of "absolute morality" is all the same. Complete and utter bullshit.

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dwise1
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Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 230 of 472 (874354)
03-29-2020 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by GDR
03-29-2020 1:51 PM


Re: Morality Evolved, Religion evolved to emphasize Morality
The different conclusions that we have come to actually are simply the fact that you hold atheistic beliefs as opposed to my theistic beliefs.
If your atheistic world view is accurate then obviously no deity is needed for morality. If however my theistic views are correct then a deity is required for morality to exist, and even for us to exist at all.
But basically your own argument eliminates the need for a deity for something that exists naturally.
To put it in other terms, we have the ID mentality that insists that science to include God in its equations. The problem there is that the natural universe will operate in exactly the same manner with or without that "God Term", so adding God to the equation is the same as adding Zero, therefore God equals Zero (not the result that they had wished for) which changes nothing. Trying that with a "God Factor", then God would equal Unity (1), which also changes nothing. Therefore, either way that ID insistence results in the same outcome: adding or omitting God changes nothing whatsoever.
The only difference that can make is to your own subjective sensitivities, but no difference to objective reality. Plus your own subjective sensitivities about "God" can be and most often are very different from millions/billions of others own subjective sensitivities about "God".
Objective reality is as close to universal as we can get. Billions of different individual subjective sensitivities about some kind of "God idea" seems to be as opposite from universal as I can imagine.
Good old Dad may in early life told young Tangle that stealing is wrong. That meme has been there ever since, and now you are years later out with a group that is encouraging you to shop lift. You have a decision to make. What dad said years before is still influencing you but you now have this new influence. What do you do. You can look at your brain functions all you want but that isn't going to tell you which choice you made. It is only your subsequent actions that give the answer.
Yes, parents teach their children so many things, both right and wrong, but also about right from wrong. That is the traditional mode of transmission of cultural values from one generation to the next. That's how it naturally works; nothing supernatural about it in its implementation.
Through the natural operation of a society, it collectively "learns" which behaviors work and which don't and which promote and strengthen the society and which weaken or even endanger the society. Over the generations, that creates a common wisdom about right and wrong which comes to be known as "morality". Society creates mechanisms to pass that common wisdom, that "morality", from one generation to the next. Most often, it's parents teaching their children well.
Often, those mechanisms become institutionalized and codified as a series of arbitrary rules and then incorporated into religion even though no god ever had anything to do with any of it.
And at that point, we lose all memory of why that rule is even necessary. And it loses all moral authority.
Also of course, if I am correct, then there is a god meme in there as well that is influencing you not to shoplift.
What would any god care about any merchant's profit margin?
But empathy, which is the basis of so much morality, would and should influence us much more.
Again, arbitrary rules don't mean anything outside of a God-driven fear of punishment. Feeling, if not yet understanding, how your behavior would affect others (AKA "empathy") means so much more.
A "god meme" is the promise of long-delayed punishment for wrong-doing. Empathy and morality is the realization of the consequences of all your actions. Which should have more influence?
That is one way of putting it. The "still small voice of God" is an influencer not a director, just as is parental guidance. I'm not sure what you mean though by directed evolution. I don't see it as being a part of physical evolution but actually much closer to Dawkin's ideas of social evolution.
There was an experiment in Finland. First the students were given dog puppies to raise and test. Then they were given wolf cubs to raise and test in the same manner they had learned. The experiences were entirely different. The puppies paid close attention to their humans, while the cubs couldn't care less. Eg, in tests involving treats hidden under bowls, the puppies watched the humans and where they were looking, but the cubs paid the humans no attention whatsoever. Eg, the puppies were very sensitive to the desires of the humans (eg, get off the furniture) whereas the cubs couldn't care less (eg, they'd be on top of the tables and couldn't get scooted off).
That means that you not only have to evolve a social order, but you also have to evolve a biological inclination towards following that kind of social order. That means that cultural evolution can only work if the physical evolution to support it has already evolved. Or more accurately both the cultural and physical evolution have coevolved.
For example somewhere along the line a parent has learned that honesty is a positive attribute that we should adhere to. That parent influences his/her children with that gene and maybe passes it on to others as well. Hopefully that gene is then passed on exponentially through others around them. I am saying that it is the same for a god meme. None of this can be determined by a brain scan.
Uh, no. That is biology. What does any "god meme" have to do with that?
If it makes you feel better, then indulge yourself but do not inflict yourself on others. We already know that any "goddidit" dicta being imposed on natural systems just end up as "God = Zero". So what's your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by GDR, posted 03-29-2020 1:51 PM GDR has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 372 of 472 (912795)
10-01-2023 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by candle2
09-30-2023 1:18 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Why would atheists and evolutionists expect humans to
be any different. Aren't we just animals?
. . .
If we are just animals, it would be to our benefit to rid the
world of three quarters of us. There would be less
competition for the available resources.
‚Äč
Why not get rid of the sick and aged, as well as those with
low IQ's? They take more than they give.
OK, so what's your point? So far it looks like standard run-of-the-mill fundamentalist bullshit.
Yes, we are animals. So what?
Are you trying to deny that we are animals? If so, then what are we? Vegetable?
Mineral? What?
Obviously we are animals. And just as obviously we are Chordata (we have a spinal cord). And Tetrapoda (our bodies have four limbs and bilateral symmetry). And mammals. And primates. And Hominidae. And Homininae. And Hominini. And Homo (though sole surviving species to our knowledge).
If you want to deny that we are animals, then please present your alternative.
 
But you mentioned "just animals". What is that supposed to mean? That only we matter, are special and superior? BTW, you do realize that the Bible is just a book. See how denigrating that kind of wording is?
Of course we like to think we are special, like in the Irish proverb:
quote:
Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn fhéin.
There's no sore bum like your own sore bum.

If we are all just animals, who will evolve into something
else in a million years, why not just do what Aleister
Crowley, the great Satanist, advised: "do what thou wilt?"
Reading between the lines (since you never say what you really mean), that is that fundie old moldy rotten chestnut: "If you teach children that they're just animals, then what else can they do but to act like animals!"
But what does that even mean? I feel quite sure of what you think it means, but what you think is completely divorced from reality.
Yes, animals do indeed behave like animals. Like their specific species of animal. To borrow from a younger generation, way after my time: Ya THINK?"
Barring any mal-imprinting (eg, Koko, given the task of sorting photographs into two piles: human and non-human (more specifically gorilla types as I seem to recall), would put her own photo in the Human pile and her parents' photos in the Gorilla pile):
  • Dogs behave like dogs.
  • Cats behave like cats.
  • Frogs behave like frogs.
  • Birds behave like birds (different species of bird behaving like itself though differently from the other species of bird).
  • Snakes behave like snakes (again, different species of snake behaving after its own species, but differently from other snakes).
  • Pigs behave like pigs.
  • Fish behave like fish (and yet again, different species of fish will behave after its own species, but in ways that are very different than in other fish).
And Homo sapiens sapiens behave like Homo sapiens sapiens. Ya THINK?
 
We call it "human nature", an idea that can be ported to all other species with very little difficulty.
So, do we Homo sapiens sapiens behave like animals? Yes we do! What kind of animals? Homo sapiens sapiens! Ya THINK?
Now, is human nature a pretty thing? Not really. Could we do better? We do try, but it's not easy.
Ironically, while religion may aspire to help us behave better, it fails miserably. Instead, much more often religion serves to rationalize bad behavior and even promotes the commission of atrocities.

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 Message 366 by candle2, posted 09-30-2023 1:18 PM candle2 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 438 of 472 (914258)
01-05-2024 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by ICANT
01-05-2024 10:18 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
I hear Him and see the results.
Which is as we feared for you.
Hearing voices is a red flag signaling mental problems. If you are not on meds, then seek professional help. If you have stopped taking your meds, then resume taking them. If you are taking your meds and still hear voices, then report that to your doctor so that he can change your meds to something more effective.
This past month, Brian "Mr. Deity" Dalton released a short series of The Way of the Mister videos, "WOTM: How To Discern Between God's Voice And Your Own" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaYfngrV3fI). Would be worth watching.
Malcolm's Brother Reese warning their younger brother, Dewey, based on his own personal experience:
Don't do what the voices tell you. THEY'RE NOT YOUR FRIEND!
 

This message is a reply to:
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