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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 451 of 472 (914276)
01-07-2024 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by ICANT
01-06-2024 11:33 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
ICANT writes:
What else do you want me to say?
This is a big claim … you could start by telling us about a conversation you had. What was said and what resulted?
Do you actually speak? Could others listen to both sides of the conversation? How do you know that this is god? What can you tell us that would help us believe you?
Can you talk to him now and type his reply?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2024 11:33 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by ChemEngineer, posted 04-09-2024 3:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 452 of 472 (914277)
01-07-2024 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by ICANT
01-06-2024 10:58 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
ICANT in Message 444 writes:
Percy writes:
Actually, Tangle is writing to you and you are reading his words. Obviously that's not what you mean
Why not don't you get science information that way.
"Why not don't"? Care to try again? Or you can just forget it - this isn't a science thread.
Percy writes:
So what do you mean 'you hear Him'? Why is this such a difficult question for you to answer?
Its not a problem I hear Him just as good as I hear you.
Since you don't hear me at all, then you don't hear Him at all, either.
If I have a problem I can't solve I tell Him I need help and the Holy Spirit gives me the answer.
And He does that how? How do you know it's even a He?
Leprechauns bless!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2024 10:58 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 453 of 472 (914278)
01-07-2024 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by ICANT
01-07-2024 12:31 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
ICANT in Message 448 writes:
So when the Holy Spirit talks to me he sends the signals to my brain or speaks to me through His Word.
And you know it's the Holy Spirit how?
Leprechauns bless!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2024 12:31 AM ICANT has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 824
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 454 of 472 (914280)
01-07-2024 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by ICANT
01-07-2024 12:31 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
Your hearing loss might explain the voices you hear. Auditory hallucinations are common in people with hearing loss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2024 12:31 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2024 2:50 PM kjsimons has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 455 of 472 (914288)
01-07-2024 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by ICANT
01-07-2024 12:31 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
So either hallucinations or wishful thinking. If there are no means by which it can be measured, it did not happen. If something happens it must leave some sort of evidence. Hitchens's Razor quoted below in my signature is appropriate here.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 456 of 472 (914289)
01-07-2024 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by kjsimons
01-07-2024 8:42 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
I have hearing loss. I imagine some of it might be similar to phantom limbs if amputees.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by kjsimons, posted 01-07-2024 8:42 AM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by kjsimons, posted 01-07-2024 3:07 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 824
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 457 of 472 (914290)
01-07-2024 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Theodoric
01-07-2024 2:50 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Yeah, I've read up on it via some books and it appears that your brain abhors a vacuum and so it fills it in for you via auditory hallucinations in cases of hearing loss. The brain is an interesting thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2024 2:50 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Omnivorous, posted 01-07-2024 7:57 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(4)
Message 458 of 472 (914293)
01-07-2024 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by kjsimons
01-07-2024 3:07 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Given free rein, my brain turns almost every ambient noise into music: factory, crowded room, big ac plus traffic -- anything, really. Similarly, random folds in bedding, curtains, clothing, etc., become faces.
Pereidolia, visual and auditory, apophenia's powerful sense of significant connection between random things (the heart of conspiracies?), all lifelong events for me. I have to actively choose to let it happen now, but in a cavernous old school truck factory 50 years ago, the score was symphonic; as a kid, the faces in my dark bedroom were nightmarish.
These are among the reasons I am deeply skeptical of visions and revelations. I know the brain--my brain--is wired for them. I know what they are.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by kjsimons, posted 01-07-2024 3:07 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Percy, posted 01-08-2024 8:52 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 459 of 472 (914296)
01-08-2024 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Omnivorous
01-07-2024 7:57 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
When I was around 11 to 13 I had a fan in my room in the summer, and from it's drone beautiful top-40 music would emerge, the same stuff I listened to on the radio. Every voice, every word, every beat, every tambourine tingle, every guitar note, every drum brush, it was all there. It felt so real. The Happenings, the Four Seasons, the Beach Boys, they were all there. I can still do it as an adult, but I have to work at it.
If during that period I had instead been listening to church sermons and reading the Bible then likely the word of God would have emerged from that fan.
Actually, now that I think of it I'm surprised that it didn't because I did listen to Garner Ted Armstrong, telling you the plain truth about today's world events and The World Tomorrow. One of his big things in 1965 and 1966 was the Bible prophecy that Israel would return to Jerusalem and that in The World Tomorrow it would happen. Then there was the 1967 war and Israel *did* return to Jerusalem, but by that time I had moved on to other things.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Omnivorous, posted 01-07-2024 7:57 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 460 of 472 (914308)
01-09-2024 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by ICANT
01-06-2024 11:01 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
ICANT writes:
I am not shy and never have been.
So let's hear more about these conversations then.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2024 11:01 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 461 of 472 (914345)
01-11-2024 12:10 PM


Seems like our man doesn't want to tell us about his conversations with god after all. Despite claiming not to be shy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
ChemEngineer
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Irvine CA 92606
Joined: 03-10-2024


Message 462 of 472 (917500)
04-09-2024 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Tangle
01-07-2024 3:36 AM


Re: The evolution of morality
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
So you rely on Tim Minchin, beat poet, for your "science"?
“If we need an atheist for a debate, we go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” - –Robert Griffiths, winner of the Heinemann Prize in mathematical physics.
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die…..” – Max Planck
Never was this truer than in the subject of Darwinism.
The Insuperable Statistics of Naturalistic Polypeptide Synthesis
Titin is the largest protein in the human body. It consists of 38,138 amino acid residues in a precise sequence. The first naturalistic synthesis, whether stepwise or in one single, continuous process, consisted of “selecting” 1 out of 20 amino acids which make up humans, 38,138 times in succession, or 1/20 to the 38,138th power. This is equal to 1 in 10 to the 49,618th power. The pretense of claiming that “sections” of any protein were “assembled” overlooks the unassailable fact that any “section,” however small, had to be assembled under the same statistical constraints. Whether one does the computations in one step or 1,000 steps, the figures are beyond dispute. They get a great deal worse, in fact.
Only Levorotary (left-handed) amino acids were used, not Dextrorotary (right-handed) amino acids, so 1 in 10 to the 49,618th power has to be multiplied by 1/2 to the 38,138th power or 1 in 10 to the 11,480th power. One more time for all consecutive peptide bonds, which are equally probable as the random formation of non-peptide bonds, thus 1/2 to the 38,138th power. The product of these three essential elements of original Titin synthesis is 1 chance in 10 to the 72,578th power (not counting whatever calculation is appropriate for the precise folding of the chain).
Finally, “selection,” that magic word Darwin so popularized, demands that at each successive step, there must be some advantage conferred, otherwise the random mutation cannot prevail and multiply. No one has ever proposed any original synthesis with breakdowns of thousands of intermediaries and each of their “selective” advantages.
Titin is only one of more than 20,000 polypeptides (proteins and enzymes) in the human body.
Pseudoscientific sophisticates claim that large proteins were “assembled” from smaller component blocks. Sorry, that does not obviate the requisite statistics, it attempts to wave them away. Every smaller component still was the result of arbitrary picking of the correct amino acid out of 20 different possibilities, in L form, with a peptide bond, and precise folding.
As a means of comparing a number as enormous as 20 to the 38,138th power, consider that the number of fundamental particles in the universe is approximately 10 to the 80th.
In 1943, the distinguished French mathematician Émile Borel stated that “events with a sufficiently small probability never occur” (Institute of Mathematical Statistics).
Dr. Borel chose a fairly safe number, 10 to the minus 50.
Ten to the 50th marbles1 cm in diameter would fill 923,400,000,000,000,000,000,000 spheres the size of earth. This is 923,400 billion billion.
Until man duplicates a blade of grass, nature can laugh at his so-called scientific knowledge. – Thomas Edison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2024 3:36 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by Taq, posted 04-09-2024 3:23 PM ChemEngineer has replied
 Message 464 by Admin, posted 04-09-2024 4:07 PM ChemEngineer has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 463 of 472 (917501)
04-09-2024 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by ChemEngineer
04-09-2024 3:17 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
ChemEngineer writes:
Titin is the largest protein in the human body. It consists of 38,138 amino acid residues in a precise sequence. The first naturalistic synthesis, whether stepwise or in one single, continuous process, consisted of “selecting” 1 out of 20 amino acids which make up humans, 38,138 times in succession,
Google searches are free. Why don't you use them?
quote:
Higgins DG, Labeit S, Gautel M, Gibson TJ. The evolution of titin and related giant muscle proteins. J Mol Evol. 1994 Apr;38(4):395-404. doi: 10.1007/BF00163156. PMID: 8007007.
Titin and twitchin are giant proteins expressed in muscle. They are mainly composed of domains belonging to the fibronectin class III and immunoglobulin c2 families, repeated many times. In addition, both proteins have a protein kinase domain near the C-terminus. This paper explores the evolution of these and related muscle proteins in an attempt to determine the order of events that gave rise to the different repeat patterns and the order of appearance of the proteins. Despite their great similarity at the level of sequence organization, titin and twitchin diverged from each other at least as early as the divergence between vertebrates and nematodes. Most of the repeating units in titin and twitchin were estimated to derive from three original domains. Chicken smooth-muscle myosin light-chain kinase (smMLCK) also has a kinase domain, several immunoglobulin domains, and a fibronectin domain. From a comparison of the kinase domains, titin is predicted to have appeared first during the evolution of the family, followed by twitchin and with the vertebrate MLCKs last to appear. The so-called C-protein from chicken is also a member of this family but has no kinase domain. Its origin remains unclear but it most probably pre-dates the titin/twitchin duplication.
The evolution of titin and related giant muscle proteins - PubMed
Titin evolved WELL after the first life appeared on Earth as shown by the absence of titin in any prokaryotic genome. If you think titin had to occur through abiogenesis then you don't understand abiogenesis, evolution, or even basic biology.
Titin evolved by many duplications of a handful of sequences, not one codon at a time.
There is also massive variation in titin sequences across life, demonstrating that there are many, many different protein sequences that will perform this function.
Why don't you join us here in the real world?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by ChemEngineer, posted 04-09-2024 3:17 PM ChemEngineer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by ChemEngineer, posted 04-09-2024 4:14 PM Taq has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 464 of 472 (917510)
04-09-2024 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by ChemEngineer
04-09-2024 3:17 PM


Moderator Comment
Most of your post is a cut-n-paste from The Evolution Fraud or some similar webpage.
It is the policy of EvC Forum that posts be original contributions. The goal is for discussions to avoid become mere cut-n-pastes.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by ChemEngineer, posted 04-09-2024 3:17 PM ChemEngineer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by ChemEngineer, posted 04-09-2024 4:21 PM Admin has replied

  
ChemEngineer
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Irvine CA 92606
Joined: 03-10-2024


Message 465 of 472 (917512)
04-09-2024 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Taq
04-09-2024 3:23 PM


Re: The evolution of morality
Taq: Titin evolved WELL after the first life appeared on Earth as shown by the absence of titin in any prokaryotic genome. If you think titin had to occur through abiogenesis then you don't understand abiogenesis, evolution, or even basic biology.
__________________________________--
ChemEngineerMBA: YOU said "occur through abiogenesis," I did not.
Atheists, Darwinists and other Leftists have the nasty habit of putting your words in the mouths of those who disagree with you and then condemning them/us for the words YOU dishonestly put into our mouths.
I said "Original synthesis." As in the first human who had titin in their muscles. Try to see the difference between "abiogenesis," your term, and "original synthesis." I know, it's hard.
-----------------------------------

Titin evolved by many duplications of a handful of sequences, not one codon at a time.
________________________-
ChemEngineerMBA: "handful of sequences." Does that come terribly close to 10 to the 79,000 in number of possible sequences? I'll answer that question. "No, it does not. Trillions of trillions is effectively zero compared to 10 to the 79,000.
______________________________

There is also massive variation in titin sequences across life, demonstrating that there are many, many different protein sequences that will perform this function.

Why don't you join us here in the real world?
_____________________________________
ChemEngineerMBA: The "real world" as claimed by Richard Dawkins and his hateful ilk? Sorry but that is not "real." It is angry make-believe. Ten to the minus 50 is "impossible." You're trying to compensate for that with a "handful." There is nothing remotely "real world" about your hand-waving.
I have read several of Dawkins' books and critiqued them, and sent my critiques to his publisher. The best Dawkins could do was call me names and ignore my valid critiques. Same thing occurred with Isaac Asimov and Carl Sagan.
Many thousands of scientists around the world have published papers and books refuting your Darwinian religion. That would not be remotely possible if it were "real world" as you claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Taq, posted 04-09-2024 3:23 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Taq, posted 04-09-2024 4:50 PM ChemEngineer has not replied

  
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