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Author
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Topic: State Execution in the USA
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 12 of 80 (914732)
01-31-2024 7:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 11 by ICANT
01-31-2024 7:29 PM
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Re: An Eye For An Eye
quote:
If the life of a person is removed by a person why should that person not need to pay for that life with their own?
That depends on what your goals for society are, and how specifically you value human life. Whether you care about recidivism, or redemption, or forgiveness. Whether you care about giving the State the power to kill its citizens. Whether you care about the mental and emotional health of the people you ask to perform the executions. How certain you are that the convicted person really did the thing they are accused of, bearing in mind that there are many many cases we know of where a person was executed and later proven to be innocent. There are lots of considerations, beyond even those I've mentioned.
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Evolution would not support such a view.
Evolution is not a set of moral principles, ICANT. It's a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life. There are no "ten commandments of evolution." This is like saying "The theory of gravity does not support the view that Mustangs are better muscle cars than Challengers." It's just pure non-sequitur.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2024 7:29 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Phat, posted 01-31-2024 8:29 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 18 of 80 (914739)
01-31-2024 9:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
01-31-2024 8:29 PM
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Re: Collective Forgiveness
quote:
Why are we suddenly worried about the power to kill when so many deadly wars are part of our daily news? In the rare cases where the death penelty is suggested, its not a big deal to collectively snuff out a life. The issue boils down to the humaneness and the method. Not the stupid ethics of a society ill equipped to judge itself.
Suddenly? Phat, you know full well that the debate over the death penalty has been ongoing for a very long time. There's a reason that not all states still use it. More than one reason, actually. And what on earth do you mean that it's "not a big deal?" It's a pretty damned big deal for the person being executed. It's a big deal for their family, and loved ones. Perhaps you should read my signature quotes, and consider their implications for my position on wars and the death penalty. Those positions haven't changed much in my lifetime. At most I've been educated on more places to apply those principles.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Phat, posted 01-31-2024 8:29 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 19 of 80 (914740)
01-31-2024 9:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
01-31-2024 8:43 PM
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Re: Capital Punishment
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The UK had the most barbaric capital punishment method I could think of
The word "had" is important, ICANT. It happened in the past. They decided to change as a society, and be better. Some American states decided the same thing - to change, and be better.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2024 8:43 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 2:35 AM | | Rahvin has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 34 of 80 (914764)
02-01-2024 11:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 26 by ICANT
02-01-2024 2:35 AM
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Re: Capital Punishment
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At the bottom of your signature is a quote from the KJV Bible.
Do you believe that verse and what it is talking about or is it just there for the words recorded in the KJV Bible.
If you have never read the four verses preceding it I will supply them for you.
That way you can know what is being discussed.
I used to be a devout Christian ICANT, I have read the Bible. I know what the quote is intended to talk about. I no longer believe any supernaturalism. I don't think there's any such thing as gods or an afterlife. Reading the Bible is a fundamentally different experience for me - more akin to reading fiction. The context of the quote is not what resonates with me any more. As with reading any work of fiction, a quote can resonate with meaning even if the context is all make-believe and pretend. EDIT: Like a parable, actually. You view specific parts of the Bible as parables, fictional stories told by real people to teach a lesson. I now view all religious texts, including the Bible in its entirety, as parable. /EDIT I like the quote as it is, out of context, because I think that most causes of death can be avoided technologically, eventually. It's a statement of hope, that if humanity works hard enough to understand the mechanisms that cause aging and cancer and other causes of death, that perhaps people won't have to say goodbye to their loved ones any more. It's also a statement on the value of a person, and an aspirational hope that humanity can learn to stop killing each other. Consider it in the context of the Gandalf quote, also in my sig. People are neither good nor evil. People do things that help other people, and things that hurt other people. People can learn to be better, given time and opportunity and help. When we kill, we take away the opportunity and time for that person to be better. And we take another person away from people who loved them. Not in my sig, but another quote from fiction, this one from Batman: Year One: "Even scum have families." I don't actually believe that people are "scum" as some enduring permanent attribute, but I believe that taking people away from their loved ones causes harm and pain and loss. There are some countries that have shifted their view of justice away from punishment and vengeance toward rehabilitation. Even murder doesn't carry a life sentence in some of them. If you are observed to continue to be a threat to yourself or others, they can use indefinite mental health detention until that situation changes. They give people, even murderers, the time and opportunity and help to become better, to stop hurting others. In doing so, those societies have also become better. Not just in a feels-good sense - they have less crime, lower rates of repeat offenders, and spend less money per capita on their criminal justice systems. Edited by Rahvin, : Realized a better word for conveying an idea to Christians.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 2:35 AM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:30 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 36 of 80 (914766)
02-01-2024 1:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
02-01-2024 1:00 PM
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Re: An Eye For An Eye
quote:
Where is the sympathy for the 960,000 people who were murdered?
Where is the sympathy for the millions of children who are left without a father/mother which ever the case may be?
Where is the sympathy for the parents of the children that were murdered?
I sympathize for them exactly as much as I sympathize for those accused of taking away their loved ones. I sympathize for their families exactly as much as I sympathize for the families of the accused. More loss doesn't bring anyone back. The difference is that some of the loss has already happened, and some of the loss may yet be prevented. The difference is that I had no agency in the decision of the accused, events that already happened, but I have some very small agency in the determination of public policy and what we should do as a society.
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How about paying for raising all the children and all the other expenses incurred by the families due to these murders?
I think that we as a society should ensure that all parents have enough resources to raise all children. I don't like things like "child support" or punitive damages like this - you wind up with imbalances and mistakes and animosity. I'd rather we just commit, as a society, to ensure that every child has the resources to flourish. In case that's too vague, I mean taxpayer-funded stipends per child to all parents, no qualifications needed other than that a child is in the care of the parent. That's the simple version, a web forum post doesnt allow for the complexity of an actual policy draft.
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In my lifetime I have had to deal with some of these things being a pastor and it was not fun.
I'm sure it wasnt. Loss of a loved one is some of the worst pain you can feel, and anyone with an ounce of empathy will feel its echo. Would it surprise you to know that there's an ordained Christian minister that I still consider to be a hero and role-model, who has always been helpful to people, including helping people deal with and process difficult things like loss?
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:00 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:59 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 39 of 80 (914769)
02-01-2024 1:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
02-01-2024 1:30 PM
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Re: Capital Punishment
quote:
Today when I see the decay of society that has taken place in that 70 years I am doubtful. It seems the more help people get the worse they get. It reminds me of the story of the Israelites in the old testament.
The path to salvation is not a straight one, ICANT. People stumble and fall. We do it even more collectively than individually. But progress also happens on more than one axis. I haven't been around 70 years yet myself, but in my lifetime I've see both an increase in hatred, and the rise of voices shouting for tolerance and support. More war, and more cries for peace. Not everyone does learn to be better. But every one can learn. quote:
We have made great strides in Tech knowledge and the medical field. In the production of food we have devolved into a money making racket and producing food that is not fit to eat because of additives that is killing the people.
On this we actually agree, and I'll go a step further to say that much of the tech and medical fields are also "money making rackets" that are killing people. Unchecked, unregulated greed always causes harm. And yet I also see so many young people, more than I've ever seen before actually getting involved, demanding adherence to the values that your generation instilled in mine: Fair treatment. Compassion. Freedom. Peace. Helpfulness. Our systems are pretty badly broken. Our people still have a lot of potential.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:30 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2024 2:55 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 41 of 80 (914771)
02-01-2024 2:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 40 by ICANT
02-01-2024 1:59 PM
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Re: An Eye For An Eye
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I would hope you would consider me one of them.
I don't know you well enough for that, ICANT, and our interactions havent always been agreeable. It's Fred Rogers, actually. An ordained Presbyterian minister, the lessons he taught and example he gave weren't only for kids. They were made for kids to learn them, with songs and puppets, but the lessons have value throughout life. And I can't imagine Mr Rogers saying that someone should be killed, even for a terrible crime. And I imagine him wanting to help everyone involved - the loved ones of the victim, the person accused, the loved ones of the accused.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:59 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 64 of 80 (914821)
02-04-2024 10:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by ICANT
02-02-2024 2:55 PM
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Re: Capital Punishment
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This is one of those places we seem to disagree on.
To me salvation is simple and easy.
As you know, I'm not a Christian. I used to be, but not for a long time now. I don't care about Bible verses that call for supernaturalism, including what Christians really mean when they say "salvation." It amuses me sometimes to use the language of Christianity when talking to religious people. When I referred to salvation, I was referring to "being a better person." Everyone makes bad decisions. A Christian might say, "for all fall short of the glory of god." I would simply say that none of us are perfectly moral. We all do things or benefit from systems that hurt other people, even if that's not what we want or intend. And sometimes we intentionally hurt each other. But just like a child who punched his sibling, making a mistake doesn't mean we are permanently broken. We can learn to be better. We stumble and fall on the road to being better people, just like kids do. My goal with criminal justice is not to punish the criminal. My goal is to help people who made mistakes become better people. I acknowledge that you didn't personally say that people should die. It's simply a thread about capital punishment. Your proposal that a person convicted of murder should be made to labor under confinement to support the family of the victims is judicially-sentenced slavery, ICANT. I can't support that. Slavery is another evil stain on the world, and making it a criminal sentence (the exception in the 13th Amendment) makes it no less a stain. It's another opportunity for us to be better. Edited by Rahvin, : Judicially, not judiciously.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2024 2:55 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2024 11:53 AM | | Rahvin has replied |
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Rahvin
Member Posts: 4080 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.3
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Message 66 of 80 (914828)
02-05-2024 2:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by ICANT
02-05-2024 11:53 AM
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Re: Capital Punishment
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To me referring to becoming a better person is sanctification. That is you study good things and allow the good things to take over your life pushing the bad things out thus becoming more like Christ was.
We have different definitions for "good," but in general there are similarities. I pay most attention to the impacts of actions - were people helped, were people hurt, and not only from my immediate actions, but down the chain of causality as best I can determine. Comparisons to a religious figure aren't so relevant to me as a former Christian. Some parts still resonate. "Love thy neighbor" is a call for empathy, and I think that empathy for others, especially those not typically included in "thy neighbor," is the heart of morality. The parable of the Good Samaritan was a good one.
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I worked as a slave for 65 years making money that the government took from me to spend taking care of the criminals and their victims.
No you didn't, and yes you did. You were a slave of capitalism, made to work for money to sustain yourself and your family, and your employer(s) had greater power than you in determining the time, place and manner of your work, and your compensation for that work. That's similar to but different from slavery, where an authority has total control over your actions and can issue punishments beyond firing you. In prison-slavery, you can be forced to work. Refusal brings an increased sentence, or punishment in the form of solitary confinement. Possibly other consequences as well. You don't have the ability to seek an alternative job. You have no negotiation power at all regarding your treatment or compensation. You obey or face punishment until you obey. The government "took your money" because, if we are going to incarcerate people against their will, we take responsibility for them. That means it's our responsibility to give them food and medical care and shelter, because we have taken away their choice to do anything else. If you want to save money on criminal justice, then your should align your views with mine. The countries that prioritize positive treatment and rehabilitation spend less money on their justice systems than we do. A lot less. They have lower repeat-offense rates, less time in prison, and they do more work-release programs where a person can serve time but also maintain their employment and positive social connections while incarcerated. This is one of the cases where doing the nice, better thing is also the cheaper, and more effective thing. The only reasons we have our current system is because Americans focus on punishment and vindictiveness rather than rehabilitation, and the growing prison-industrial complex that has a positive feedback loop of increasing incarceration rates to generate profit through slave labor.
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So, Rahvin explain to me why I had to slave to support my family and also support those criminals who were too lazy to work and wanted other people to support them and their habits. Then they ended up in jail and we had to keep supporting them and their habits.
Didn't Jesus command you to go to the prisons and comfort the prisoners? Would he have approved of a system that hurts people for the sake of hurting them, rather than focusing on forgiveness and rehabilitation? He might not have cared about the monetary aspect, but when Jesus and your tax bill can both be happier, why should we focus so hard on expensive punishment that only increases suffering? I've been the victim of a few crimes, including domestic violence. I didn't want the person to be sent to jail. I wanted them to get help. I didnt think the person was lazy - they had some very unfortunate things happen in their life, most of which was out of their control. What they needed was support, not punishment.
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A slave on my Great, Great Grandfathers farm. When the slaves were were set free and he told them they were free to go anywhere they wanted to go. They said go where. He said anywhere you want to go or you can stay here and do they same things you have been doing since you came here. Everyone chose to stay. Each family had their own house, and a plot for a garden. He furnished all the equipment, fertilizer, animals, and land. They furnished the labor and when the harvest was in they received half of the proceeds.
I cannot explain in words how hard I cringe reading that. Your great great grandfather owned humans as property, and then when the law forced him to free them, they had nowhere to go, so he "generously allowed them" to continue working for his benefit. You seem to think this reflects positively on your ancestor. It does not.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV) Nihil supernum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2024 11:53 AM | | ICANT has not replied |
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