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Author Topic:   Who Owns the Standard Definition of Evolution
Tangle
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Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(5)
Message 3 of 698 (914858)
02-06-2024 8:26 AM


The most widely accepted definition of evolution among scientists is the gradual change in heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations, driven by natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, and gene flow. It is the process by which species adapt to their environments and diverge from common ancestors over time.
The general public's understanding of evolution can vary, but a commonly accepted definition is the idea that species change over time through a process of natural selection, leading to the development of new species from ancestral ones.
However, there are also varying degrees of acceptance and understanding among different segments of the population, with some holding alternative beliefs or misconceptions about the concept.
There you go. Took about a minute. Thanks Chat GPT.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2024 8:56 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 5 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 4:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 7 of 698 (914873)
02-06-2024 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 4:15 PM


K.Rose writes:
I'm looking for a more technically-based definition. Something like: ...
Ah, sorry, you're in the wrong shop, try next door.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 4:15 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 98 of 698 (915008)
02-08-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by K.Rose
02-08-2024 5:31 PM


This is high grade trolling Mr Rose. Congratulations.
Obviously you are a creationist with no scientific education or interest in, or understanding of, the science of evolution.
You can find the answers to all these very basic questions very easily on line; why are you making this stuff up? You must know that what you are doing is entirely disingenuous. From here it looks like the usual lying for Jesus that we get all the time.
What do you think you're doing here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by K.Rose, posted 02-08-2024 5:31 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 109 of 698 (915028)
02-09-2024 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by K.Rose
02-09-2024 12:25 PM


K.Rose writes:
What I'm doing is asking questions, prickly though they may be.
The questions you are asking can be answered with 5 minutes of googling - prickly or otherwise.
quote:
Confident Engineers and Scientists are generally eager to explain their hypotheses and address questions, if only to show their knowledge and reinforce their ideas. The good ones can break it down to terms their audience can understand, rather than launching into arcane technospeak.
You're not interested is understanding anything regardless of how it's explained.
I have had some thoughtful responses, some a bit impatient, and a great many disdainful. To paraphrase a few: "you don't know what you're talking about", "your questions are nonsensical", "go take a class", "...usual lying", "go away".

The defensiveness and reluctance to engage are quite telling. When you're over the target you'll take a lot of flak.

I have had some thoughtful responses, some a bit impatient, and a great many disdainful. To paraphrase a few: "you don't know what you're talking about", "your questions are nonsensical", "go take a class", "...usual lying", "go away".

The defensiveness and reluctance to engage are quite telling. When you're over the target you'll take a lot of flak.
We've seen thousand of people like you here, we can spot you at the first post. We know how this goes. You've finally come out of your closet and told us what your motivation actually is.
K.Rose:
The notion of a random, non-directed, continuing common ancestry for all life forms is the most critical of these, critical in that it is the prerequisite for refuting Biblical Creation.
The fact that the ToE contradicts what's written by superstitious Iron Age desert tribes many thousands of years ago is of no concern to science. It's just unfortunate for your belief system that it turns out to be a fact. It's very, very easy to establish the facts for yourself, just do a short course in biology.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:25 PM K.Rose has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 1:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 111 of 698 (915030)
02-09-2024 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by sensei
02-09-2024 1:16 PM


sensei writes:
We've seen even more people like you, full of arrogancec, but hardly any useful contribution, almost always hostile.
Cynicism born of experience.
There have been a couple of believers that have come here genuinely looking to understand things but a betting man would not bet on the next one here to be one of them.
Mr Rose here has finally told us that he's a creationist - there is absolutely nothing that anyone can say here that will make him look at the biology - he's only here to troll. Forgive me Christian, it gets depressing and tedious watching malign stupidity at work over and over again.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 1:16 PM sensei has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 126 of 698 (915045)
02-09-2024 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
02-09-2024 4:17 PM


ICANT writes:
The problem with evolution as I see it is that it is built on a lot of assumptions. Assumptions are not facts as they are only the imaginations of scientist.
It's actually built on a set of observations. Observations are facts.
The biggest problem evolutionist have is how life began to exist from non life.
That is not a problem for evolutionary biologists because the origin of life is not part of the theory of evolution. Weird huh?
There are 2.13 billion critters on earth today and no two of them alike and none in a visible process of changing into another species. Why isn't evolution taking place today if it took place in the past? It just boggles my mind all the assumptions that have to be swallowed to believe what is believed today.
Evolution is happening in every species alive on earth today. It's just not what you think evolution is. That's because you haven't the first clue what evolution is. What you imagine it is, is not what science says it is. And luckily for the world, how science defines science is not affected by what you think it is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2024 4:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:49 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2024 7:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 198 of 698 (915120)
02-10-2024 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Taq
02-09-2024 8:11 PM


Never mind all that evolution bollox, the lady testing the tea got it right eight times out of eight! Now that is a miracle!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Taq, posted 02-09-2024 8:11 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 236 of 698 (915159)
02-10-2024 3:02 PM


Well he asked this
quote:
Let me ask a different question, since this one apparently is too difficult for many of you lot.

Researcher 1 claims: this coin is fair, with +/- 0.5 chance for tails when we toss again.
Researcher 2 claims: this coin will always land on tails, no matter how often we toss.
Researcher 3 claims: this coin has been tampered with and hugely favors tails.

What are the odds for these claims? If you bet 10 dollars on the first researcher, what would be your winning chances? How about if you put 10 dollars on the second researcher? And the third?
It seems a very strange thing to ask. They're all just claims with no evidence, so the odds can't be known without tossing them. The starting assumption is p=0.5, so you toss 'em 100 times and calculate the odds from the outcome.
Why this matters and how relevant this is to his argument is another matter entirely. Probably just another brain fart.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 243 of 698 (915172)
02-10-2024 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by K.Rose
02-10-2024 5:42 PM


How old is the earth K. Rose?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by K.Rose, posted 02-10-2024 5:42 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by K.Rose, posted 02-10-2024 7:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 278 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2024 2:22 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 281 of 698 (915211)
02-11-2024 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by K.Rose
02-10-2024 7:33 PM


K.Rose writes:
I don't have the exact number, but somewhere between 6000-7000 years.
So presumably you also believe that God put all the living organisms on this planet 7,000 years ago as we see them now, and that they are immutable?
I would guess that you also believe that all the biblical stories of Adam being made by God from dust from the ground and Eve from Adam's rib? Noah's Ark and the rest are simply factual?
If so, it seems that you have set an infinity low standard of evidence for your side of the argument and an impossibly high one for ours. Why do you not hold yourself to the same standard that you wish to hold us?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by K.Rose, posted 02-10-2024 7:33 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by K.Rose, posted 02-11-2024 2:13 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 283 of 698 (915213)
02-11-2024 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by sensei
02-11-2024 3:41 AM


Alternatively you should just explain the point you think you are making to us as clearly as you can. If you're getting the same reaction from several intelligent and qualified people it's likely that either you haven't explained yourself properly or that you are wrong.
So why not have another go at explaining your argument?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 3:41 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 4:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 288 of 698 (915218)
02-11-2024 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by sensei
02-11-2024 4:35 AM


sensei writes:
I asked a question, what is the probability that we have a fair coin?
That question can only be answered after the fact. But a scientist would form the hypothesis that as there are two sides to the coin and that there are no obvious sign of a bias then the prediction would be p=0.5 per toss. Then he would test the prediction by tossing it n times.
With a fair coin the predicted probability of the coin landing all tails or all heads 10 in a row is 2^10, 1024.
Do you think it's difficult to understand what is being asked here?
Yes
What part of this question do you think needs more explaining.
That would be all of it. We have no idea what point you are hoping to make. So why not spell it out for us?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 4:35 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 5:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 291 of 698 (915221)
02-11-2024 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by sensei
02-11-2024 5:56 AM


sensei writes:
After what fact?
After you've performed the test. (Of tossing the coin n times to confirm or falsify the initial p=0.5 prediction)
You are trying to guess the point. That is your problem. You guess, but you guess wrong over and over again.
Why are you asking us to guess your point, why don't you just tell us what your point is?
Is it because you've lost the point you thought you were making? Or maybe you thought you had one but have been shown to be wrong and can't admit it? Or, more likely, never had one in the first place?
So just stick to the question, that is already hard enough for you low intellects.
Your question has been answered. We're waiting to hear from you what its relevance has to the discussion about evolution.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 5:56 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 6:31 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 293 of 698 (915223)
02-11-2024 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by sensei
02-11-2024 6:31 AM


sensai writes:
Test has already been performed, as I stated. We observed ten times tails. So do you think you can answer the question now? Or explain to Taq that the probability of 1/1024 of finding this observation is not the same as the probability that the p=0.5 assumption is correct or not.
The prior probability of a two-sided coin falling tails 10 times in a row is 1:1024. If we toss the coin 10 times and it comes up tails every time we conclude that the coin is very unlikely (1 chance in 1024) to be fair and that the original prediction of p=0.5 for that coin was highly unlikely to be correct.
If we want more precision we keep on tossing the coin.
So what is you point?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 6:31 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by sensei, posted 02-12-2024 5:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 314 of 698 (915253)
02-11-2024 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by K.Rose
02-11-2024 2:13 PM


K.Rose writes:
Evolutionary Biology posits a common ancestry for all lifeforms based on a process/mechanism whereby one lifeform eventually procreates into a different life form, and presents this process/mechanism as scientific fact conforming to the Scientific Method. In other words, the claim to scientific factuality means this process/mechanism should be demonstrable per the Scientific Method.
I really wish you guys would ay least try to understand what the science is, instead of making up your own straw men.
Common ancestry is a conclusion that falls out of the observed fact of descent with modification. It's not essential for the ToE that all life descended from one single life form. In fact that looks unlikely as horizontal gene transfer in microbes is another observed fact.
So far all I have seen to support this claim are lengthy explanations pieced together from incomplete and sometimes discontinuous data points. This is necessary up-front work in the effort to prove the process/mechanism, but test data it is not.

I am simply asking for proof of this process/mechanism, in the form of controlled observation or repeatable demonstration. And, yes, scientific fact is a high bar.
And yet you're happy to accept that snakes can talk, then man was made by god from dust, that the earth is 7,000 years old, that Noah built an ark, that marsupial's travelled from Australia to the Middle East to get on a boat, that the earth was flooded to above the mountain tops. All without a shred of evidence - nothing at all, none. And plenty of evidence sating that it's the ravings of Iron Age superstition. But here you are demanding full and detailed records - repeatable no less - from science. Grow up.
I suggest you get down the library and do some reading.
The Bible is not subject to science, science is subject to the Bible. So there is no bar for the Bible, high or low.
The bible is as subject to science as any physical manifestation. It's provably errant.
In this thread we're talking about Evolutionary Biology, and how it is defined. Once this discussion settles down we can bring in the age of the earth.
There's 20 years plus of threads on that, restart one or start a new one.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by K.Rose, posted 02-11-2024 2:13 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
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