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Author Topic:   Who Owns the Standard Definition of Evolution
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 11 of 698 (914879)
02-06-2024 5:17 PM


I have always liked RAZD's definitions of evolution.
Message 7
RAZD:
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 14 of 698 (914887)
02-06-2024 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 5:39 PM


K.Rose in Message 12 writes:
but it seems there should be a readily available concise definition. Maybe one that is maintained by some accepted authority on Evolution?
Why does it seem there should be, to you? Can you point to a single "accepted authority" on the other major scientific fields? Why should there be one for biology?
Is there such an authority? I suppose there will always be disagreement on some of the finer details, but to whom/what can we appeal to reconcile some of the more fundamental aspects of Evolution, e.g., what is random/complex/inferior/life/etc.?
Many universities offer series of courses that cover biological evolution and there have been many textbooks written on the subject.
You want a few simple sentences to define one of the most complex processes in nature. How would a more detailed, simpler definition be more useful than those already provided? It's interesting that biologist seem to be able to communicate just fine using the definitions we already have and are not clambering for "better definitions."

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 5:39 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 7:34 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 22 of 698 (914904)
02-06-2024 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 7:07 PM


K.Rose in Message 16 writes:
In the Science discipline a Theory is a hypothesis for which an experiment
Actually, that is the definition of an hypothesis. And you are erroneously using the nonscientific, common usage, meaning of theory: as a wildass guess.
A scientific theory consists of all the supporting evidence. A scientific theory is everything we know about the subject. This is the normal understanding across all scientific disciplines.
In my experience, Evolution as a hypothesis does not rise to the level of Theory due to its un-testability.
Well, I don't have any knowledge of your experience, but you appear to be unaware of the the incredible amount of supporting evidence that evolution accounts for the diversity of life we see on this planet today. The supporting evidence comes from many different scientific fields and fills university libraries and museums around the globe.
You also seem to be unaware that millions of scientists around the globe test many aspects of evolution on a daily basis and they also write millions of papers every years detailing their observations.
I'm interested in an observable experiment that can be applied to any of Evolution's key principles. If one is out there then I am all ears.
Well then, you'll be glad to hear that any good recent evolutionary biology textbook should document numerous experiments. One I can highly recommend is: Evolution, Third Edition by Carl T. Bergstrom and Lee Alan Dugatkin, W. W. Norton & Company; Third edition (July 1, 2023).
Incidentally, one expert (Mr. Mayr) defining Evolution many times in many ways is a nullification of rather than an endorsement of Evolution as a coherent hypothesis.
It's a shame you haven't read any Ernst Mayr. If you had you would see that considering all the different modes of reproduction and selection, you might expect modes and patterns of evolution to differ also. So a broad definition of evolution is, flawed reproduction (mutations) leads to descent with modification and differential selection removes some less fit individuals from the population, but the specific details of evolution can very greatly for different taxa.
If you are looking for one simple rule for all of evolution, then it is descent with modification.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 7:07 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 8:58 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 25 of 698 (914909)
02-06-2024 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 7:34 PM


K.Rose in Message 19 writes:
For example: The mutation into a superior, more complex, or wholly different life form that manages to exist and procreate and evolve further.
How specifically do you define superior in a biological sense. Can you give an example? We are talking about reproduction here, parent and offspring.
More complex in what sense? Can you give an example? We are talking about reproduction here, parent and offspring.
or wholly different life form that manages to exist and procreate and evolve further.
I have no idea what you are saying here. Can you provide any example of any parent ever giving birth to to a wholly different life form, ever, in the history of this planet?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 7:34 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 27 of 698 (914911)
02-06-2024 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
02-06-2024 8:42 PM


AZPaul3 in Message 23 writes:
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject?
Hey, can I use this in my signature? Please?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2024 8:42 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(4)
Message 38 of 698 (914927)
02-07-2024 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 8:58 PM


K.Rose in Message 26 writes:
If descent with modification is the simple rule, how is this rule substantiated? Has this process been observed and recorded? Can this process be re-created? Alternately, what data confirms this process?
Are you serious? Reproduction, every single reproductive event is the verification. It has been observed for millennia that offspring do not exactly resemble their parents, like they would if they were exact clones. Every offspring carries mutations that did not occur in the parents. That's the descent with modification or the genetic part of evolution. And selection is the other aspect of the process that plays out on the tapestry of populations across time.
I have seen a great deal of supporting data for this Evolution process, all of it pictures and explanations, and none of it the type of hard, repeatable data demanded by the Scientific Method.
Really? So you are saying, the pictures and explanations were NOT showing and describing and explaining the supporting evidence?
What were the pictures and explanations for if not showing the supporting evidence?
Hard, repeatable data demanded by the scientific method
You mean like mapping and comparing the genomes of tens of thousands of species, and often from multiple populations of a species, that kind of hard repeatable data? You mean like mapping the paleo-biogeographical history of this planet, that kind of hard repeatable data? You mean like cataloging all the endogenous retroviral insertion in all the genomes that are sequenced, that kind of hard repeatable data?
I don't know about your scientific method, but our scientific method is chugging along just fine on that data. And by the way, these huge datasets generated by rapidly advancing genome sequencing technology are being combed for hidden patterns are wonderful testing grounds for AI systems that are good at looking for interesting patterns.
ABE: It occurred to me that maybe by "hard repeatable data" you meant something like fossils, going and finding the same type of fossils from the same rock layers? Or maybe you meant you wanted the actual fossils instead of pictures and descriptions?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 8:58 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 42 of 698 (914943)
02-07-2024 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
02-06-2024 10:23 PM


33 writes:
What did you expect to see? New animals pop into existence?
Yep, that's exactly what he expects to see.
K.Rose in Message 19 writes:
For example: The mutation into a superior, more complex, or wholly different life form that manages to exist and procreate and evolve further.
The problem here is, no matter how many times and how many ways we try to correct his basic misunderstanding of evolution, he will continue to think evolution is an organism giving birth to a "wholly different lifeform."

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2024 10:23 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by K.Rose, posted 02-07-2024 7:28 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 64 of 698 (914965)
02-07-2024 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by K.Rose
02-07-2024 7:28 PM


K.Rose in Message 52 writes:
If the process is not so abrupt as "new life forms popping into existence", if the process is gradual, successive, subtle mutation, then we should see a fossil record that is littered with mostly "in-between" life forms.
Well, I guess you haven't been paying attention, because that's exactly what we find. All fossils are "in between" their ancestors and their descendants. In fact, that's kind of a standard principal of life, all organisms are between their ancestors and their potential offspring. Do you disagree?
But we don't see that. We see populations distinct life forms that were here, and then they were gone.
Please provide specific examples of what you are talking about, since almost all species that have ever existed are extinct. Are you saying they didn't have ancestors because they are now extinct?
The fossil record may present different creatures that perhaps have similar skeletal structures, or respiratory systems, but that doesn't mean one evolved from the other.
That's true. Do you dispute that organisms with a spinal chord and internal skeleton are all members of Phylum Chordata? Do you dispute that the only organisms with feathers are birds and avian dinosaurs? Do you dispute that organisms with 3 major body regions, 6 legs and at most 4 wings are all insects?
This is where Evolution seeks to fill in the "missing link blanks" with an explanation, rather than demonstrating with empirical evidence.
Actually Evolution is a scientific field of study and not a thinking, acting entity.
I think you will find that any speculations in reputable scientific papers or texts are clearly labeled and discussed. This is often to encourage further exploration or observation and discovery. Scientists build on the discoveries of their predecessors, that's part of the repetition in science.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by K.Rose, posted 02-07-2024 7:28 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by K.Rose, posted 02-08-2024 6:02 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 72 of 698 (914973)
02-07-2024 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by K.Rose
02-07-2024 9:13 PM


K.Rose in Message 70 writes:
And no, direct observation of the fossil record doesn't count.
Says who? You don't make the rules about what science can or cannot observe.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by K.Rose, posted 02-07-2024 9:13 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 79 of 698 (914985)
02-08-2024 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by K.Rose
02-08-2024 6:02 AM


Please see Message 64

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by K.Rose, posted 02-08-2024 6:02 AM K.Rose has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 80 of 698 (914986)
02-08-2024 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Percy
02-08-2024 8:51 AM


Percy in Message 78 writes:
You seem intent on ignoring people while restating your opinions. If this isn't the kind of thing you're looking for then just say so and explain what you are looking for.
K.Rose in Message 70 writes:
And no, direct observation of the fossil record doesn't count.
How so? How are fossil digs and fossil analysis not (to use your words) "direct observance & recording of the phenomenon."
What if they found fossils of bunnies back in the Permian, creating numerous difficulties for evolutionary theory? Would that count?
So, what do you think? I'm predicting he's a student in a christian high school, so called science class. He gets extra credit for owning the evolutionists...

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 02-08-2024 8:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2024 3:45 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 90 of 698 (914999)
02-08-2024 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Theodoric
02-08-2024 3:32 PM


I'm kind of disappointed he hasn't brought up probabilities of proteins or something happening...

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2024 3:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2024 4:03 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 93 of 698 (915003)
02-08-2024 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ICANT
02-08-2024 4:06 PM


How is this fundamentally different from what was already posted multiple times in this thread?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 02-08-2024 4:06 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(4)
Message 102 of 698 (915012)
02-08-2024 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by K.Rose
02-08-2024 5:03 PM


K.Rose in Message 94 writes:
but the evolutionary process in question is the one governing the descent of one life form from another, e.g., aquatic creature to land animal, bird to lizard, etc.
What are you talking about? No one thinks lizards evolved from birds!
The evolutionary process in question governing the descent of one life form from another is called reproduction, and all lifeforms descend from their parents.
The evolutionary process in question is the one that would demonstrate that all life forms come from a common ancestor. The processes that result in variance (genetics and natural selection) are not that process.​
The process is reproduction. Life falls into nested hierarchies based on morphology, which is the pattern you would expect to see if life evolved from a common ancestor. When it was discovered that species fall into the same nested hierarchy based on genetics, that added tremendous support for the common ancestor part of the theory of evolution. In fact, genetics absolutely shows this pattern for all the species that have been sequenced so far. And when exceptions were found for that, re-evaluation of the morphology showed errors in the original groupings.
Pretending that genetics and natural selection are not part of the process evolutionary descent with modification is just illogical and silly and certainly not based on any scientific observations, and in fact, is counter to what is actually observed.
One other observation - If the fossil record is so incomplete, what certainty can we have of any conclusions drawn from this record?
The certainty that the descriptions we have for the millions of fossils of hundreds of thousands to millions of species are are accurately documented. And this was a poorly formed question rather than an observation.
On one hand the Evolutionist says the fossil record is replete with transitional life forms, and on the other hand he says it is highly incomplete. How can it be both ways?
You are trying to imply that if we don't know everything, we cannot know anything, which is absurd. Scientists observe and report that all the fossils are obviously transitional between their ancestors and their possible descendants. It's a pretty simple and obvious concept, that we see demonstrated with every single birth of every single organism.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by K.Rose, posted 02-08-2024 5:03 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:10 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 113 of 698 (915032)
02-09-2024 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by K.Rose
02-09-2024 12:10 PM


K.Rose in Message 107 writes:
I’ll accept that Evolutionism includes a broad category of studies, but there are a couple of essential components in in the Evolutionary process that go beyond mere natural selection and variance within like lifeforms. The notion of a random, non-directed, continuing common ancestry for all life forms is the most critical of these, critical in that it is the prerequisite for refuting Biblical Creation.
I don't see how this is a response to anything i wrote in Message 102, or anywhere else, and just what the hell is evolutionism? Rebranding evolutionary biology as evolutionism just makes you look ignorant, immature, and petty.
but there are a couple of essential components in in the Evolutionary process that go beyond mere natural selection and variance within like lifeforms.
Well, when are you going to reveal a "couple essential components" that go beyond natural selection and genetic mutations within a species?
The notion of a random, non-directed, continuing common ancestry for all life forms
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here, what is "continuing common ancestry for all life forms?"
continuing common ancestry for all life forms is the most critical of these, critical in that it is the prerequisite for refuting Biblical Creation.
Well, the thing is, biblical creation in all its forms has been refuted by all of science for the last 2 centuries. We just object to dimwits and religious nutjobs trying to force it into science classes.
My effort here is to understand the evidence showing that this is possible. How does one life form evolve into another? What is the mechanism? Can or has it been observed? Can it be reproduced in the laboratory?
You don't actually seem to be trying to understand, you have ignored the questions we've asked you to try and understand what you do know, and you have also ignored every single answer you have been given, so you can drop the act of innocent scholarship.
Yes, we can and have observed many different kinds of mutations in wild and captive (laboratory) populations. We observe changes in allele frequency in populations. We observe populations adapt to changes in their environment. We observe species going extinct because selective pressures were greater or more rapid than genetic variability and descent with modification could adapt them to.
Scientists and Engineers understand the importance of observation and experimentation/testing, and the proper presentation of conclusions and their Certainty, including the Margin of Error, Probability, and Confidence, all derived using standard statistical methods.
Yep, that would be a basic part of their training, but you don't seem to be aware that there is far more to scientific publication, the conclusion is usually just a small section near the end. Often the conclusions also include speculation or new hypotheses to be explored.
Note that Scientific Fact has a pretty high Certainty bar: Zero Error, 100% Probability, 100% Confidence.
Note that this is just something you just made up. If not, please show your references.
If measurable testing and observation cannot be performed, then there is no opportunity to substantiate the validity-certainty of a technical proposition.
I don't know why you are discussing a situation where no observations can be made, if you can't observe something how would you get the idea to study it?
Great minds spending great resources on great explanations is a reasonable start, but it cannot supplant repeatable demonstration.
This seems to be rhetorical filler and it shouldn't be repeated.
These days the Great Deceit of many scientific theories lies in their presentation to the public as implied fact, and in allowing the misconception of factuality to stand.
Well, you might want to take that up with the non-scientific media.
If Evolutionism can meet the high bar of Scientific Fact, then it should be presented as such.
Yeah, since "Evolutionism" is something you made up along with "Scientific Fact" none of us care how you present it.
If not, then the Certainty of Evolutionary conclusions must be divulged front and center.
As I mentioned earlier, the conclusions come near the end.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:10 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
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