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Author | Topic: Destiny/Free Will | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Philip Member (Idle past 4723 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
B F Skinner once stated something like: We're ... "beyond freedom and dignity". The 'Calvinist' of behavioral psychology, he believed we are governed by our observed environment like rats in the experimental maze. I would think that mutationalists would follow the same religion. I myself am a ‘Skinnerian’ on another level (‘non-environmental level’ if you will); I believe everyone has a supreme master he is enslaved to.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7577 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote: I seem to remember you use mutationalist in place of evolutionist. In this case I would say you are wrong, though perhaps not entirely. Firstly you would be wrong to generalise about the behaviourist theories of evolutionists or to deduce any necessary behavioural theory from the theory of evolution. Nevertheless, in the study of gene expression, there is a danger of genetic determinism: of believing that genes which may influence behaviour do so in a way that is consistently expressed. Such a view is too simplistic to be honestly held by all but the most crippingly narrow-minded scientist. That the public may be influenced in the direction of determinism by talk of "gay genes" or "aggresive genes" is a indictment of science's greatest failing - the failure to communicate its methods and findings clearly.
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Philip Member (Idle past 4723 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
quote: I could not agree more.Oversimplistic, I was, sorry. My point is: 'Destiny' and 'Free Will' are extremely paradoxical topics. I fully reject "gay genes" and such as the only criteria for "sin". For example, I myself am an identical twin (genetic clone). My twin is opposite in many "behaviors": He is a 'Zon' atheist/evolutionist (or so he states) while I am a 'born-again' Christian/creationist (so I state). He is an 'AA'-alcoholic, I only drink NyQuil (rarely). He has several wives (caucasion); I have one (oriental). I am a podiatrist and portrait artist, he is an engineer and sports-lover. I am a Red-neck and he is a Yankee. We were raised together like average twins. This seems to disprove "genetic sin" enough, that SIN is from the 'real' person. Perhaps, the human genome and gene pool(s) only produce a mere carnal-man with affections and appetites whose apperceptions are extremely limited, yet somewhat beyond that of a dog or monkey. (This hypothesis needs development.) The 'natural' man is: Excellent, yet 'lustful', 'striving', 'violent', 'crafty', 'worldly', 'self-deceived', and destined for destruction. Sins occur at random and often go unnoticed, and appear 'written into' the genetic-code (as prenatal sin). But what makes one twin (like myself) go one way and one the other is not the "sin-gene" alone. Note eukaryotic genes also change and collaborate with protein factors that are environmental in nature (at least I was told in genetics classes). Moreover, one may percieve "Calvinistic" (Destiny) scriptures as compatible with "Arminian" (Free Will) scriptures: i.e., God is Sovereign but I am a morally responsible wretch requiring Salvation from my sin(s). No evolution of good behaviour is possible from within these genes as genes merely serve 'carnal 'minds' and affections (and other apperceptive entities within carnal man). But a 'regenerated' man (that 'crucified-and-risen-with-Christ' type of man), usually with songs and melodies that are so odious to most mutationalists... is trampled upon in this 'almost-but-not-quite' 'scientific' forum. While most here are by nature eternally 'destined' to compulsively observe a pseudo-science sham of 'mutation'(?#!), I 'compulsively' study the science of a 'Christ-God crucified', because it is (without excuse) greatly inferred by observation in nature. Thus, being 'TAKEN' by this topic, I 'CHOSE TO' speak of its excellency per se. (Note the multi-tiered paradox(es), ... God bless and goodnight!)
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7577 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote: I think it would be interesting to see more of what you mean by the science of a 'Christ-God crucified'- could you expand on some aspects of this that relate to obvservations from nature?
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Has faith (then) likewise been peer-to-pressured away stressed?
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Philip Member (Idle past 4723 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
QUOTEI think it would be interesting to see more of what you mean by the science of a 'Christ-God crucified'- could you expand on some aspects of this that relate to obvservations from nature?
[/B][/QUOTE] HYPOTHESIS: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).METHODS/MATERIALS: Observation of man, creation (space-time contiuum), creatures/life-forms. DATA: Severe and ongoing cosmological destructive events occurring in the space-time continuum: pedophiliacs, murderers, dogs vs. cats, nation against nation, sickness, crying, travailing and groaning amidst the creation, etc, etc.. Songs of ‘deliverance’ occur among humans; friendship and ‘praise’ postures, etc. A woman in child-bearing’s ‘hope’ is observed. Marks of destruction and ‘slow death’ all over the cosmos: a severely ‘battered’ moon, ‘Eroding’ systems, ‘Volcanic upheavals’, Lightning and Tornados, etc. The constant aging that goes on without cease. The constant ‘renewals’ that take place within creatures: ‘healings’, ‘loving’, ‘forgiveness’, peace, etc. RESULTS: Entropy is real. Cell deterioration/aging/mutation (negative as in metastasis, cancer, organ breakdown), and System degeneration takes place. The creature is ‘renewed’ with ‘positive’ events (physical and metaphysical), The creation is renewed: i.e, ‘seasons’, rains, etc. CONCLUSION: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7577 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
Thanks for posting Philip. I'm not sure I understand it, but I will read it through carefully and give it some thought.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
[QUOTE]RESULTS: Entropy is real. Cell deterioration/aging/mutation (negative as in metastasis, cancer, organ breakdown), and System degeneration takes place. The creature is ‘renewed’ with ‘positive’ events (physical and metaphysical), The creation is renewed: i.e, ‘seasons’, rains, etc.
CONCLUSION: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).[/B][/QUOTE] Well, I have a slightly different perspective. First, nothing in what you have written precludes evolution. Also, have you ever considered the possibility that Joshua of Aramathia was a teacher whose life and death inspired people to apply the natural events that they saw occuring around them to the life and death of Joshua. That they imposed this natural concept onto his life and death in order to bring sense and meaning to their own lives. Just a thought. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
What I HAD been trying to say is that a postitive surface of negative entropy may reveal that no matter the frequency table of genes that adaptaions may be encountered by data exploration of the relational data based on free paths more frutifully than Harvard Gould and Lewontin support as gene frequecies change. The software and the specification for this remains unwrit. The concept is available. But who cares when people still see sides. Some progress over our elders is not all money under the table.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Brad, why don't you go babble at someone who cares about your rambling? ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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b0_0 Guest |
I believe in a total causal determinism. Thus for me every mans actions has a biological reason, known or not. For me, "creation" is just a form of "evolution". Free will does NOT exist; however an illusion exists, an illusion which has a specific purpose which is not the issue right now.
So when you say "There is an infinite number of possibilities that a person can choose", i agree, but i add that the possibility chosen between the others had a specific cause, conscient or inconscient. This apllies to all forms of causes/effects. Life is just a tissue of determinism...when you choose between coffee or tea in the morning, there is a cause. It may known be to you or not; but what is sure is that it chosen always according to some instinctive laws, that of survival for example.
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Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
And what of quantum physics? Experiments appear to indicate that the indeterminancy is real, not perceived.
--Percy
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peke Inactive Member |
Ohh... back after all this time... just had some free time to kill
The indeteminancy in quantum physics doesn't matter on any scale that we humans use. Yes, atoms and such can't really be pinpointed in any given place, but we don't see objects as shifting blurs. Also, I believe that the overall randomness would cancel out, because all atoms of the same type act the same way. Just like how if everything moved 'left' a metre, we wouldn't notice.
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