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Author Topic:   Who Owns the Standard Definition of Evolution
sensei
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 286 of 703 (915216)
02-11-2024 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Tangle
02-11-2024 3:58 AM


quote:
If you're getting the same reaction from several intelligent and qualified people it's likely that either you haven't explained yourself properly or that you are wrong.
I asked a question, what is the probability that we have a fair coin?
Do you think it's difficult to understand what is being asked here? What part of this question do you think needs more explaining.
If you lot manage to misunderstand it, then no, you are by far not intelligent and not qualified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2024 3:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2024 5:01 AM sensei has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17998
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 287 of 703 (915217)
02-11-2024 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by sensei
02-11-2024 4:30 AM


quote:
Another evolutionist totally missing the point and talking nonsense. It's about the miíinterpretation of the p-value by Taq. Not about what model produces what data.
I get it. You’re. Not actually interested in addressing Taq’s claim at all. Either that or you’re just arrogantly dismissing my point without understanding it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 4:30 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 5:49 AM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9616
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 288 of 703 (915218)
02-11-2024 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by sensei
02-11-2024 4:35 AM


sensei writes:
I asked a question, what is the probability that we have a fair coin?
That question can only be answered after the fact. But a scientist would form the hypothesis that as there are two sides to the coin and that there are no obvious sign of a bias then the prediction would be p=0.5 per toss. Then he would test the prediction by tossing it n times.
With a fair coin the predicted probability of the coin landing all tails or all heads 10 in a row is 2^10, 1024.
Do you think it's difficult to understand what is being asked here?
Yes
What part of this question do you think needs more explaining.
That would be all of it. We have no idea what point you are hoping to make. So why not spell it out for us?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 4:35 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 5:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
sensei
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 289 of 703 (915219)
02-11-2024 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by PaulK
02-11-2024 4:41 AM


quote:
I get it. You’re. Not actually interested in addressing Taq’s claim at all. Either that or you’re just arrogantly dismissing my point without understanding it.
No, you don't get it at all. You think you do, but you fail miserably. Your point is mute, as it does not at all address anything that is up for discussion here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by PaulK, posted 02-11-2024 4:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by PaulK, posted 02-11-2024 6:48 AM sensei has replied
 Message 302 by Theodoric, posted 02-11-2024 10:50 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 290 of 703 (915220)
02-11-2024 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Tangle
02-11-2024 5:01 AM


quote:
That question can only be answered after the fact.
After what fact?
quote:
That would be all of it.
Then I suggest you take english class.
You are trying to guess the point. That is your problem. You guess, but you guess wrong over and over again. So just stick to the question, that is already hard enough for you low intellects.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2024 5:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2024 6:13 AM sensei has replied
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 02-11-2024 10:51 AM sensei has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9616
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 291 of 703 (915221)
02-11-2024 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by sensei
02-11-2024 5:56 AM


sensei writes:
After what fact?
After you've performed the test. (Of tossing the coin n times to confirm or falsify the initial p=0.5 prediction)
You are trying to guess the point. That is your problem. You guess, but you guess wrong over and over again.
Why are you asking us to guess your point, why don't you just tell us what your point is?
Is it because you've lost the point you thought you were making? Or maybe you thought you had one but have been shown to be wrong and can't admit it? Or, more likely, never had one in the first place?
So just stick to the question, that is already hard enough for you low intellects.
Your question has been answered. We're waiting to hear from you what its relevance has to the discussion about evolution.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 5:56 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 6:31 AM Tangle has replied

  
sensei
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 292 of 703 (915222)
02-11-2024 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Tangle
02-11-2024 6:13 AM


quote:
After you've performed the test. (Of tossing the coin n times to confirm or falsify the initial p=0.5 prediction)
Test has already been performed, as I stated. We observed ten times tails. So do you think you can answer the question now? Or explain to Taq that the probability of 1/1024 of finding this observation is not the same as the probability that the p=0.5 assumption is correct or not.
quote:
Your question has been answered.
Who answered it, and what was the answer? I have only found an incorrect answer from Taq, saying it's the same as the p-value of 1/1024.
What is your answer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2024 6:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2024 6:45 AM sensei has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9616
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 293 of 703 (915223)
02-11-2024 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by sensei
02-11-2024 6:31 AM


sensai writes:
Test has already been performed, as I stated. We observed ten times tails. So do you think you can answer the question now? Or explain to Taq that the probability of 1/1024 of finding this observation is not the same as the probability that the p=0.5 assumption is correct or not.
The prior probability of a two-sided coin falling tails 10 times in a row is 1:1024. If we toss the coin 10 times and it comes up tails every time we conclude that the coin is very unlikely (1 chance in 1024) to be fair and that the original prediction of p=0.5 for that coin was highly unlikely to be correct.
If we want more precision we keep on tossing the coin.
So what is you point?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 6:31 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by sensei, posted 02-12-2024 5:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17998
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 294 of 703 (915224)
02-11-2024 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by sensei
02-11-2024 5:49 AM


quote:
No, you don't get it at all. You think you do, but you fail miserably. Your point is mute, as it does not at all address anything that is up for discussion here
My point is that your argument does not address Taq’s actual point. Obviously you shouldn’t be able to reliably tell random data from random data. So it is your argument that is moot (not “mute” - you can’t even get that right).
And that’s why you use arrogant bluster instead of actually addressing the issues I raise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 5:49 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by sensei, posted 02-12-2024 5:32 AM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 295 of 703 (915225)
02-11-2024 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by K.Rose
02-10-2024 7:20 PM


K.Rose writes:
In this matter a large-scale misrepresentation is being foisted on the public, even though it may be as subtle as "it is" vs. "it seems to be".
You have yet to raise any objections that are true to evolution's view that life changes over time through a process of descent with modification combined with natural selection. You seem to have begun a reset to where you started of just saying evolution is wrong while ignoring the discussion of the past couple hundred messages where you were unable to find anything that was actually wrong.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by K.Rose, posted 02-10-2024 7:20 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.3


(3)
Message 296 of 703 (915226)
02-11-2024 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by K.Rose
02-10-2024 7:33 PM


K.Rose in Message 254 writes:
I don't have the exact number, but somewhere between 6000-7000 years.
You're ignoring more than biology then. Onward Christian soldier, to physics, to chemistry, to astronomy, to cosmology, to geology, to boldly do battle with all the rebukes to your religious fantasies.
More on topic, genetic analyses reveal events of biological change that took place millions of years ago.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by K.Rose, posted 02-10-2024 7:33 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.3


(1)
Message 297 of 703 (915227)
02-11-2024 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by ICANT
02-11-2024 2:22 AM


ICANT in Message 278 writes:
Tangle writes:
How old is the earth
I am not K.Rose but it is a lot older than K.Rose said it is.
You and K.Rose should get together in a thread and present your evidences to each other. You could build from these:
  1. The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1)
  2. The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 2)
  3. The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 3)
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2024 2:22 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 298 of 703 (915228)
02-11-2024 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by sensei
02-11-2024 3:28 AM


sensei in Message 279 writes:
Percy in Message 231 writes:
sensei in Message 171 writes:
quote:
My point, as has been repeated several times now, is that there is no functional reason why separately created life would have to use the same tRNA's and codons.
Sure, because we know every function of all parts of the DNA, and nothing of genetics hold any mystery for us anymore, right?
Really, such arrogance often leads to error.
Rephrasing what you just said:
sensei rephrased:
Because there is much we still don't know of DNA and genetics it is therefore arrogant of you to perform analyses of what we do know.
Wrong again. It's about the assumptions of parts of DNA not having any function,...
Understandings of what were formerly considered DNA's non-functional regions have improved. Some regions *are* non-functional or have functions we do not yet understand, but others have functions. But a region doesn't have to have a known function to trace it's genetic history.
...so it should be random if there is no common ancestor.
The fewest possible common ancestors is 1. Zero is not possible and is shown wrong by the existence of your own parents. In the Biblical view of you and K.Rose, if God created 10 million species then there are 10 million common ancestors, not none.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 3:28 AM sensei has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 299 of 703 (915229)
02-11-2024 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by sensei
02-11-2024 3:36 AM


sensei in Message 280 writes:
Percy:
So finally we know what he's asking: Since the probability of ten consecutive tails is 1/1024 given a fair coin, is that the same as the probability that we have a fair coin. The question seems meaningless to me. He'll have to clarify further.
So you don't see any usefulness in a question like what is the probability that the common we have a common ancestor with all primates, given the observations shown by Taq?
That question makes sense, your question makes no sense to anyone here. If you decide to clarify to the point where people understand then we can comment.
I mean, in the end, that is always the key question, as the main claim of Taq is that we share a common ancestor.
If you think it's meaningless, then yeah, tell me what ranks you count yourself in?
Are you asking whether I consider humans primates? Of course I do. It's definitional. It's like asking is a Ford Fairlane a car. Of course it is, by definition.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 3:36 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by sensei, posted 02-12-2024 5:46 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 300 of 703 (915230)
02-11-2024 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by sensei
02-11-2024 3:41 AM


sensei in Message 282 writes:
Percy:
The question seems meaningless to me.
This is like a huge problem for you evolutionists. You just don't get what the main point of discussion is. And you don't know how to correctly interpret the p-value in scientific testing. Which is at the core of the scientific method.
You should rather refrain from making any scientific claims if you don't even understand these basics.
You remain mostly incomprehensible to most people here, it appears by choice. If and when you start saying comprehensible things then we can comment.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by sensei, posted 02-11-2024 3:41 AM sensei has not replied

  
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