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Author | Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined:
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That there was someone that preached and may have been named Jesus and may have had followers and may have angered authorities and people may have written stories about him is a pretty low bar to set. It doesn't make that person the Jesus of the bible or anything like that mythical character.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8709 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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I have to ask; how much information do you think we ought to have? I have to wonder what happened to the historians and scribes of the time. Why did they not record the strange and mysterious workings of this young rabi? They recorded quite a bit about the movers and shakers of the time and, with their exchange of letters, we get a glimpse into the social sides of the society. Not a word of the miracle worker from the Levant. If a divine priest was performing such miracles to the extent the myths indicate then someone, even in a pitifully illiterate society, would have noticed and recorded, even the rumors, of the events. Those are the missing pieces of evidence that should be there if this myth were true. One could argue that we just haven’t found any such documentation because, reasons. Granted. IMHO unlikely.
To be clear, I assume we're talking about a realistic Jesus here, not one who walked on water and got into fights with fruit trees. The idea of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher who left an outsized legacy doesn't seem at all implausible to me. Among the myriad ministries I understand were prevalent at the time nothing stood out enough, apparently, to write about. Nothing any of these apocalyptic preachers said moved society enough for what few scribes there were to notice and record. If there were an outsized legacy from this rabi then it appears to have been developed decades after the fact by story tellers embellishing some interesting stories. I agree. Doesn't seem at all implausible.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Granny Magda in Message 135 writes: I have to ask; how much information do you think we ought to have? For the Jesus of the New Testament I would expect a great deal of evidence, and you apparently agree that there was never any such Jesus. I wouldn't expect any evidence, or at least very, very little, for "an obscure religious mystic."
The idea of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher who left an outsized legacy doesn't seem at all implausible to me. I think Paul created Christianity. He might have made Jesus up out of whole cloth, or he might have based him upon a real person. I wouldn't venture a guess which and I don't think it matters. --Percy
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 355 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Theo,
That there was someone that preached and may have been named Jesus and may have had followers and may have angered authorities and people may have written stories about him is a pretty low bar to set. I find that a bit of an odd comment. Low bar? The bar is set at... reality. Neither of us believes in magic or divinities. No reputable historian incorporates miracles into their interpretation of the past. In talking about a historical Jesus, in the framework set by normal historical practice, we are necessarily talking about a non-divine, non-magical Jesus. That's just where the bar is set, whether we like it or not. Of course we could talk about whether the magical Jesus of popular Christian imagination was real or not, but I think we both know that's a waste of time. I'm not proposing we have that silly conversation. That's off the table as far as I'm concerned. Certainly if we were academics publishing papers on history it would be off the table.
It doesn't make that person the Jesus of the bible or anything like that mythical character. As rhetoric I agree with that. It's true in a sense and I'm pretty sure I've said it myself before. The distinction between a plausible historical Jesus and the mythic Jesus is a useful one. I would quibble a bit over the phrasing though. Even before his death, people said that Julius Caesar was divine, the descendant of Ares and Aphrodite (talk about being a nepo baby). This is obviously made up, just a bit of myth making. They're still talking about the same guy though. They're talking bollocks about him but that doesn't mean they're not talking about Julius Caesar, the real guy. They are talking about the historical Julius, they're just saying things about him that aren't true. Similarly, even when the claims about him are clearly fiction, the Gospels are, possibly, talking about a real historical person called Jesus. They're just saying a lot of things about him that aren't true. I find it more plausible that the Gospels are heavily fictionalised accounts of a real person than that they are complete fiction. Mutate and SurviveOn two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: The New Testament is going to be about as reliable as an official Scientology biography of L Ron Hubbard.
quote: Paul may have reshaped Christianity, but he’s clear that it existed in some form before he joined it.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9626 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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I just read the thread. Nothing in it gives evidence for Jesus. Where is it? Absent.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. |
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined:
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Caesar? Irrelevant. We have reams of historical evidence for Julius Caesar. Jesus? Nothing. Absolutely totally nothing. How many dozens of interpretations of a Jesus figure are there? Hundreds? Myth, nothing more. Until there is historical evidence all of these myriad of ideas are meaningless. There is no Jesus.
I find that a bit of an odd comment. Low bar? The bar is set at... reality.
Then we can reasonable say there was no Jesus. He is a mythical story built from other mythical stories. He is most likely (IMHO) a literary device to create a story showing perceived fulfillment of perceived prophecies of ancient religious texts and oral stories.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 355 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined:
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Hi AZPaul,
I have to wonder what happened to the historians and scribes of the time. Why did they not record the strange and mysterious workings of this young rabi? They recorded quite a bit about the movers and shakers of the time and, with their exchange of letters, we get a glimpse into the social sides of the society. Not a word of the miracle worker from the Levant. Well quite. If "many holy people who had died" really did jump out of their graves and go wandering around Jerusalem to the considerable surprise of "many people", I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that somebody might have thought that worth mentioning somewhere. The obvious reason we have no record of such incredible events is because they never happened.
If a divine priest was performing such miracles to the extent the myths indicate then someone, even in a pitifully illiterate society, would have noticed and recorded, even the rumors, of the events. Those are the missing pieces of evidence that should be there if this myth were true. I agree. The myth isn't true. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't based upon a real man, nor does it mean that there aren't elements of historical truth in the Gospel accounts. Likely they are a mix of; a) Broadly true accounts of real events and/or the real teachings of the actual historical Jesus.b) Heavily fictionalised or distorted versions of real events/teachings. These might resemble reality quite closely or be wildly errant, or anywhere in between. c) Fan fiction, based on no real event and/or which does not represent or actually contradicts Jesus' original teachings. How much is there of each and which bit is which? That question is kind of above my pay grade, although I do suspect that there's quite a bit more of the latter two categories than the first. Mutate and Survive On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined:
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I suppose next you'll say there's no evidence of Santa Claus. Man, I sat on that dude's lap when I was 4!
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
Well I get asked by 4 year odds if I am Santa, so there must be Santa if they know about him.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: |
Oh, that happens to me too!
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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PaulK in Message 140 writes: The New Testament is going to be about as reliable as an official Scientology biography of L Ron Hubbard. True.
Paul may have reshaped Christianity, but he’s clear that it existed in some form before he joined it. According to the New Testament. --Percy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8709 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Quick question too lazy to look up.
The books of the new testament that are Paul's letters to various congregations, is there any debate of their authenticity?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: According to his own writings - which are included in the New Testament.
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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PaulK writes: According to his own writings - which are included in the New Testament. Which is where Paul's writings can be found and which you just called unreliable. --Percy
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