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Author
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Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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A Brief Word For Theo
Its because you have convinced yourself that ONLY data or evidence will do it for you. You've admitted to never having been a believer and I see you reinforcing the idea that you likely will never be one. At least you don't seem to want it. Did it ever occur to you that Faith/Belief, though offered to everyone, was only received by those who willfully received it? Or will you stubbornly draw the line at objective evidence? And I know I know...this is a science topic so I will take my preaching elsewhere! 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 297 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2024 9:41 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2024 9:19 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 313 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 11:45 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 302 of 563 (915570)
02-15-2024 2:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 295 by AZPaul3
02-14-2024 7:31 PM
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AZP writes: No objection. The instantiation of the founders, the group, is their invented alter ego, Jesus. We don't know who, what, where, this historical Jesus did, said or lived anything. You came up with two fine scenarios. I can speculate more. But, to no point. So, given all that I'll say again, you can't get to “probable”. My own feelings on the matter change depending on whether I've just read Carrier or just read Ehrman. It's just not possible to know.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 295 by AZPaul3, posted 02-14-2024 7:31 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 303 of 563 (915571)
02-15-2024 2:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
02-14-2024 8:00 PM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Phat writes: Of course not, now that AZ Antitheist has eliminated #1 as a possibility. We've all eliminated the biblical Jesus Phat. The guy that turned water into wine certainly did not exist. We're discussing whether there was an actual person called Jesus that the mythical miracle maker was built around.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 296 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 8:00 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 304 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 3:02 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 304 of 563 (915575)
02-15-2024 3:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 303 by Tangle
02-15-2024 2:22 AM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Tangle writes: We've all eliminated the biblical Jesus Phat. What a coincidence! You all are not believers also. In deference to Taq, I wont keep pushing to convert you...at least not today. I shared Dr.RC Sproul because he is among a minority of Christian Pastors/Teachers whom I respect. He was a philosophy major and later became a Theologian. If you cant even stand five minutes of him, there is no hope that you ever will become believers. Barring Divine Intervention!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 303 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:22 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 306 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:25 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 310 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2024 9:40 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 305 of 563 (915576)
02-15-2024 3:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 302 by Tangle
02-15-2024 2:15 AM
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Only His Hairdresser Knows For Sure
Tangle writes: It's just not possible to know. You know something? I will agree with that!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 302 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:15 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 306 of 563 (915577)
02-15-2024 3:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
02-15-2024 3:02 AM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Phat writes: What a coincidence! You all are not believers also.
Well of course it's not a coincidence. Nor is it a coincidence that the scholars writing about Jesus as a real person are (almost) all believers and usually also theologians. It's also not a coincidence that the historians and the theologians doing the real historicity research will all tell you that great chunks of the biblical stories are totally made up - including some of the important parts like the sermon on the mount and even the critical points such as the resurrection are heavily disputed.
Taq, I wont keep pushing to convert you...at least not today Do grow up, or at least try not to be a dick - that's just bloody insulting.
I shared Dr.RC Sproul because he is among a minority of Christian Pastors/Teachers whom I respect. He was a philosophy major and later became a Theologian. If you cant even stand five minutes of him, there is no hope that you ever will become believers. Why on earth do you think I'm going to listen to anything a Christian pastor has to say? Why Phat? Have you learned nothing? Don't bother, that was rhetorical.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 304 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 3:02 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 317 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:36 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 307 of 563 (915581)
02-15-2024 9:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-15-2024 1:02 AM
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Re: A Brief Word For Theo
So, you readily admit and agree that there is no evidence of a historical Jesus? Then you turn that into an attack on me. Nice display of those christian values.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 1:02 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 308 of 563 (915582)
02-15-2024 9:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 302 by Tangle
02-15-2024 2:15 AM
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No you can get to possible. Probably requires at least some semblance of evidence. Bayesian principles and prior probability do not get us to probably. More likely than not requires some evidence.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 302 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:15 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 309 of 563 (915583)
02-15-2024 9:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
02-14-2024 8:00 PM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Probably requires a modicum of evidence. There is not.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 296 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 8:00 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 310 of 563 (915584)
02-15-2024 9:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
02-15-2024 3:02 AM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
A doctorate in christian theology implies a an unevidenced belief in a historical and magical Jesus. Therefore, anything said or written by such a person can be thrown out a biased and prejudiced. The place he got his Ph.D from does not even have a campus. It is a diploma mill. This is its office. Google Maps
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 304 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 3:02 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 311 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 10:42 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 311 of 563 (915587)
02-15-2024 10:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 310 by Theodoric
02-15-2024 9:40 AM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Why do you always think that I am "attacking" you? Did it ever occur to you that I value your intelligence enough to share something? And what do you do? You google the evidence (implied evidence) through the internet to find the alleged source of the guy's wisdom! That does not impress me. Why not have the guts to listen for ten minutes and make a conclusion based on your intelligence rather than raw data from Google? Wisdom (or intelligence) is measured not merely by data and credentials but through applied learning. If you have a closed mind regarding any possibility of learning anything from a Theologian, I would only "attack" you by labeling you as willfully ignorant much as you do me. I would respect you a lot more if you at least listened to what I find compelling (Note: It's NOT a YOUTUBE video) and then offered constructive criticism based on what was attempted to be taught rather than on a juvenile approach of checkmating me through Google. Or you can dismiss me with a handwave, telling me to crawl back under my rock...much as you did the whole idea of Belief in God. You become the decisions you make, as do I.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 310 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2024 9:40 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 312 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2024 11:17 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 312 of 563 (915590)
02-15-2024 11:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 311 by Phat
02-15-2024 10:42 AM
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Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
LOL. You think these idiots have anything to say other than preaching. That is all you do. I have started religion and religions for almost 50 years now. I have heard it all. There is no revelation coming from a preacher. You have no facts and data. You have feelings. Yes, you do attack. You insult. You dismiss expertise and actual knowledge. A theologian has nothing to teach. They preach. I find it hilarious that you think doing research is juvenile. You expect me to listen to someone before I check on their credentials. This guy can read and interpret the bible. Whoop dee do! Why is his interpretation better than millions of other interpretations? Many Christians are going to disagree with him. Why do you expect anyone to believe him rather than another preacher or another sect or another religion? What makes him special?
Note: It's NOT a YOUTUBE video
It is worse. It is a ministry website with a very prominent donation button. Why would I want to watch a video of someone attacking me and those like me. There is nothing to save me from. Yeah, you better find that rock again. He was a grifter and a charlatan. No more no less
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 311 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 10:42 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Taq
Member Posts: 10085 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 313 of 563 (915592)
02-15-2024 11:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-15-2024 1:02 AM
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Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Phat writes: Did it ever occur to you that Faith/Belief, though offered to everyone, was only received by those who willfully received it?
I do have to say that the uneven geographic distribution of this offering is a bit strange. One of the concepts that first made me doubt my beliefs was the question of what I would believe if I had been born elsewhere. If I was born in Iran would I be Muslim? Probably. If I was born in India would I be Hindu? Probably. It seemed to me that the truth of religious belief shouldn't be based on where you are born. That made me doubt all supernatural claims made by religions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 1:02 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 314 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:06 PM | | Taq has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 314 of 563 (915593)
02-15-2024 1:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 313 by Taq
02-15-2024 11:45 AM
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Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: One of the concepts that first made me doubt my beliefs was the question of what I would believe if I had been born elsewhere. If I was born in Iran would I be Muslim? Probably. If I was born in India would I be Hindu? Probably. It seemed to me that the truth of religious belief shouldn't be based on where you are born. That made me doubt all supernatural claims made by religions. Lets assume for a moment that the Bible is true. I know that is hard for you to do but just give it a try. God started with a male and a female only two people so there would only be one religion all religions started from that one religion. That tells me that mankind is responsible for starting all religions but one. So as people got scattered out along comes the devil and starts getting people to believe different things. The people then teach their children those things and mold them into their particular belief. I have friends that were raised Hindu but today they are born again children of God. I have friends who was raised Muslim and are now born again children of God. I have a lot of friends who were raised Communist but are now born again children of God. I have friends that their parents died atheist but they are now born again children of God. So it does not make any difference where you are born. It only makes a difference who you listen too and follow. The Holy Spirit is everywhere and He can convince anyone who will listen to Him. He is that still small voice that speaks to you from inside your mind. If you want to know the truth you have got to want it and seek after it and you will find it. Just be careful which spirit you follow. You have a blessed Day today,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 313 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 11:45 AM | | Taq has replied |
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Taq
Member Posts: 10085 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 315 of 563 (915594)
02-15-2024 1:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 314 by ICANT
02-15-2024 1:06 PM
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Re: A Brief Word For Theo
ICANT writes: Lets assume for a moment that the Bible is true. We could do the very same thing for every other religious text.
I have friends that were raised Hindu but today they are born again children of God. I have friends who was raised Muslim and are now born again children of God. I have a lot of friends who were raised Communist but are now born again children of God. I have friends that their parents died atheist but they are now born again children of God.
There are Christians who have converted to Islam, Hinduism, and any number of other religions.
So it does not make any difference where you are born. Yes, it does. Any map will show an uneven distribution of faiths amongst the human population.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 314 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:06 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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