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Author Topic:   Did the belief in evolution ever accomplish good?
mark24
Member (Idle past 4435 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 17 of 29 (9159)
05-01-2002 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?

But has it ever done any good?

Dan
http://musicinit.com/pvideos.html


Has belief in 6 day Genesis ever done any good?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 946 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 18 of 29 (9160)
05-01-2002 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mark24
05-01-2002 9:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
Has belief in 6 day Genesis ever done any good?

Mark


Well, it might have turned some people off regarding christianity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 05-01-2002 9:54 PM mark24 has taken no action

  
techristian
Member (Idle past 3342 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 04-03-2002


Message 19 of 29 (9161)
05-01-2002 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by gene90
05-01-2002 12:11 AM


Percipient, should we deny gunpowder or metallurgy next?

Metallurgy can be proven every day in a smelting plant and the first time that you deny the power of gunpowder you can be quickly shown by a demonstration, but over 100 years of lab experimenting can't produce life from simple elements. Now also realize that we are deliberately trying to DESIGN life in a lab and 100 years later we still haven't done it , so why should anyone with any brains think that it could happen randomly?

As to a literal 6 day creation, have any of you ever heard of RELATIVITY? Because it is beyond your understanding, doesn't mean that it isn't true. 500 years ago electricity was a mystery but today we have harnessed the unseen power of the free electron. But if anyone disbelieves in electricity, it can be proven in a lab experiment. However, I'm afraid you will never be able to prove that evolution is real in a lab, and conflicting and erroneous data for evolution doesn't add up.

Dan
http://musicinit.com/pvideos.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by gene90, posted 05-01-2002 12:11 AM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 29 (9162)
05-02-2002 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by techristian
05-01-2002 11:40 PM


techristian, it is a pity that you have chosen to overlook or ignore the examples which have already been cited where evolutionary theory has enabled medical advances. I do hope you don't put faith in those vaccines, antibiotics and animal grafts which are only feasible through an understanding of the relatedness of different species through evolutionary theory.

It is also a pity that you willfully or inadvertantly fail to distinguish between evolution and abiogenesis. Do you accept the demonstration in the laboratory of evolution as per the example of bacterium which metabolises nylon? see http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm

It appears that your reference to relativity in regards to a 6 day creation indicates that relativity is beyond your understanding. Why do you believe in electricity when it isn't mentioned in the bible? Could there be scientific truths which the bible fails to mention?


This message is a reply to:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 21 of 29 (9164)
05-02-2002 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by techristian
05-01-2002 11:40 PM


[QUOTE][b]but over 100 years of lab experimenting can't produce life from simple elements.[/QUOTE]

[/b]

You're changing the subject on us. At the start of the thread you were asking if evolution has done any good, implying that the validity of a theory is weighed morally. (Has String Theory done us any "good"?)

[QUOTE][b]Now also realize that we are deliberately trying to DESIGN life in a lab[/QUOTE]

[/b]

Who is trying to design life in a lab? I've heard of production of amino acids in a concept demonstration by Miller and by others as a way of probing the possibility of abiogenesis (and modeling the atmospheres of other Solar System bodies).

But since you bring it up, I really can't resist asking, have you managed to yet speak amino acids into existance? Now if you have not yet spoken amino acids into existance, why are you criticizing the current models of abiogenesis?

[QUOTE][b]and 100 years later we still haven't done it[/QUOTE]

[/b]

According to the abiogenesis models, it took millions of years in nature. And may I remind you that we are only barely able to manipulate individual molecules. Organic chemistry in the lab is still a sloppy science based upon thousands of reactions that are occuring as a result of essentially "random" molecular interactions that progress crudely to generate the expected result (with a lot of impurities and unwanted by-products).

[QUOTE][b]As to a literal 6 day creation, have any of you ever heard of RELATIVITY?[/QUOTE]

[/b]

If you are saying that 4.5 BY on Earth is six days to God then I don't have any problems with your perspective. In fact I could agree with you. But if your position is that the Earth was made in 6 24 hour days relative to an observer on EARTH then I disagree with you because it is contradictory to evidence.

[QUOTE][b]Because it is beyond your understanding, doesn't mean that it isn't true.[/QUOTE]

[/b]

Science works with the unknown based upon what is already understood. If you have a personal faith in some breakthrough 500 years from now that will validate your position that is fine for you but it is not applicable in science unless/until you can present evidence for that phenomenon. Ie, you have to discover it first.

[QUOTE][b]However, I'm afraid you will never be able to prove that evolution is real in a lab[/QUOTE]

[/b]

I'm afraid that evolution *is* a lab exercise. Familiar with emerging diseases? We're arguing with Philip on that point right now under the thread "Vestiges" and if you can add to it I welcome your input.

[QUOTE][b]and conflicting and erroneous data for evolution doesn't add up.[/QUOTE]

[/b]

This is begging the question, our exchanges on what you consider "conflicting and erroneous data" seem to have broken down.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by techristian, posted 05-01-2002 11:40 PM techristian has taken no action

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1409 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 29 (9168)
05-02-2002 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by techristian:
[B]Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?[/QUOTE]

The understanding of the ToE has led to better treatment for genetic diseases, and it has led to a great deal of improvement in food crops and disease resistance in food plants. It also helps us to understand how to prevent pesticide resistance among pests.

quote:
I know that a belief in evolution has led some individuals to live like animals in wild sex orgies and others to to treat "less evolved" races as slaves.

Uhh, sex orgies??? ROTFLMAO!!

Social Darwinism, as has been discussed on this board several times, is a MISUSE of the scientific theory and is not correct. Do not blame the ToE for some people's misuse of it. Should I condemn Christianity because some people have misused it to, say, conduct the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, or kill doctors?

quote:
I also know that a belief system such as evolution ,

The ToE is not a "belief system". The ToE is a scientific theory which is well-supported by the evidence. It is every bit as much a "belief system" as Gravitational Theory, Atomic Theory, or the Germ Theory of Disease.

quote:
void of a belief in the wrath of God,

There are many Biologists who are also Christians, so the above statement of yourse is rather nonsensical.

quote:
makes it easy to commit murder and other crimes.

Um, how many people in our pisons today, do you think, do not believe in the wrath of God? Do you think that our prisons are filled with Atheists or Christians?

Many people who commit crimes such as murder are poor and uneducated and have not likely even heard much about science at all, let alone Biology, let alone the ToE. The average person in the US has a very poor understanding of science in the first place.

Where do you get these outlandish ideas, anyway?

------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."

-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"


This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 4272 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 23 of 29 (9169)
05-02-2002 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by gene90
05-01-2002 12:11 AM


gene90, that may be true but I think the phrase that "heritability" would not exist to be a much more dangerous claim. I had thought for a long time that one could think in Christianity that body, temple, cornerstone could be linked in the mind and I did so for years that I was speculating on how to make a black bird from a veal cutlet. I found that Galelio was already trying to disabuse people of this error. I do not deny that Von Weiskaker's use of "transformation" might not mean that for artistic reasons one can avery that any inheritance does not ipso facto exist but for me this expression so phrased would require a perception of Greek tradition we appear to be lacking and looking at the present changes we do not seem to be gaining.

Again, you may be right to so reason but it seems that the idea can be refined. Thanks for the input.


This message is a reply to:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 718 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 24 of 29 (9177)
05-03-2002 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
04-22-2002 11:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:

Did evolution doctrine ever do anything good to cure sickness, or abolish world hunger or anything good at all?

First, there is NO evolution doctrine.

Evolution is a theory on the cause of the variety of life
on earth, and has large bodies of evidence (see, well the
whole of this site) which support it.

quote:
Originally posted by techristian:

I know that a belief in evolution has led some individuals to live like animals in wild sex orgies

Beyond the obvious (humans ARE animals and so any way we
behave is behaving like animals), could you please point to
some animals that have wild sex orgies ?

Or were you being metaphorical ?

Could you explain exactly how a belief (although its not)
in evolution can lead to immorallity ?

There ARE christians who accept the ToE, are they immoral too ?

quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
and others to to treat "less evolved" races as slaves.

While others have pointed out that slavery pre-dates ToE by
several thousand years, it is worth noting that (assuming you
are alluding to Nazi germany) I believe that the 'Master Race'
concept is from Nietches(sp?). It does NOT rely on evolution,
nor refer to it. It simply is the mis-representation of one
race as superior to another, and as soon as we have a
'We are superior' attitude we are in trouble .... I mean
look at the Crusades.

quote:
Originally posted by techristian:

I also know that a belief system such as evolution , void of a belief in the wrath of God, makes it easy to commit murder and other crimes. But has it ever done any good?

Dan


Again many christians accept ToE, so how is evolution connected
with Atheism ?

As far as any good goes .... what relevance does that have ?

Scientific enquiry is neutral. It seeks to explain existence
as we find it. How that information is used can be good or
bad (i.e. only people can be good or bad within the context
of their society).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 29 (9331)
05-07-2002 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by techristian
04-28-2002 4:47 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by techristian:
Israel was enslaved by the Egyptians true, but the "slavery" from most of the bible as you quoted was different. If I owed you a large sum of money, I could become your "servant" to pay off the debt. Slavery is only one example that I mentioned earlier. I only mentioned that without a faith in God we could try to get away with anything. (As long as no one was watching such as authorities, our wives etc.) Speaking of laws, where do you think our current legal system comes from?

Dan
http://musicinit.com/ [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, the "Jews" were not enslaved by Egyptians... The "Jews" ruled Egypt and where overthrown and run out of Egypt. The Hyskos who stayed in egypt later became jews, and were fully indoctrinated into Egyptian life(were merchants, payed taxes, all that good stuff)


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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by TrueCreation, posted 05-08-2002 5:38 PM RedVento has taken no action

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 29 (9397)
05-08-2002 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RedVento
05-07-2002 4:58 PM


"Actually, the "Jews" were not enslaved by Egyptians... The "Jews" ruled Egypt and where overthrown and run out of Egypt. The Hyskos who stayed in egypt later became jews, and were fully indoctrinated into Egyptian life(were merchants, payed taxes, all that good stuff)"
--Not too big into archaeology, though do you have a reference, possibly a link? Thanx.

------------------


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Replies to this message:
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joz
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 29 (9414)
05-09-2002 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by TrueCreation
05-08-2002 5:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Not too big into archaeology, though do you have a reference, possibly a link? Thanx.

This was a reference to the Hyksos which were a semitic people (claimed descent from Abraham like the Hebrew and other Arab peoples) rather than the Hebrews per se....

Look them up or read "River God" and "Warlock" by Wilbur Smith for a fictional account of their invasion and continued prescence in Egypt....


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scarletohairy
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 29 (9434)
05-09-2002 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Mister Pamboli
04-29-2002 12:37 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
Yes I can see that we have much in common with RATS! Rats are the used the most in labs these days. Yes I can see that mankind has done very deep analysis of RAT/human similarities and came up with rats as a likely choice for developing medicine and antibiotics. NOT !

Actually you were pretty much right until the last word. We do share some important metabolic and physiological traits with rats thanks to our common ancestry and these similarities are the basis of many experiments.

It is naturally important for the differences as well as the similarities to be borne in mind, which is one of the reasons I oppose a lot of animal testing, especially of items such as cosmetics and household solvents. Nevertheless, rats do have great similarities which can be used very effectively. For example, gene therapy has proven highly effective in treating rats with parkinson's disease. The rats have been treated with genes which code for enzymes necessary for the production of L-Dopa. The results have been very exciting improvements in the rats' motility. Now here is the important point - Parkinson's related motility problems in humans are also due to lack fo L-dopa, the same genes in humans and rats encode for the production of L-dopa, and the same vectors can be used to deliver the payload of genes. Sadly, these results probably won't lead to effective therapy in time to help my own father, but I am very grateful for our genetic relationship to rats and the hope it will bring to others.

Given that mice and rats have historical associations with humans, we actually do have a lot in commmon. However, the real issue is that we are mammals.


This message is a reply to:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 29 (11183)
06-08-2002 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peter
05-03-2002 5:37 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:

As far as any good goes .... what relevance does that have ?

Scientific enquiry is neutral. It seeks to explain existence
as we find it. How that information is used can be good or
bad (i.e. only people can be good or bad within the context
of their society).


I have to second this. True is true. It isn't a function of what makes things easy. We just have to make due with the way things happen to be.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
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