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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
ICANT
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 256 of 537 (916238)
02-27-2024 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Candle3
02-27-2024 1:34 PM


Re: Apologetically Speaking
Hi C2,
C2 writes:
Satan must have some awesome powers in order to think
that he could war against God and win.
Your problem that war has not taken place yet.
C2 writes:
Angels are not allowed to defy God's laws, no more than
we are.
Angels are created beings not humans. They do what they are programed to do nothing more or nothing less. If the devil did not exist you would not have a choice period.
Mankind is the only living life form that can disobey God. He created mankind and gave him the choice between good and evil and the only man who had that choice was the man created from the dust of the ground he is the only mankind that has ever been created perfect. Jesus was God in the flesh with no dna of mankind or even blood. Had He had either He would not have been a sufficient sacrifice for the sins or mankind. He would have sin residing in Him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Candle3, posted 02-27-2024 1:34 PM Candle3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Candle3, posted 02-27-2024 3:07 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10385
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 257 of 537 (916239)
02-27-2024 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ICANT
02-27-2024 2:15 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
ICANT writes:
But that was not the question he asked.
It's the entire point of this thread, to show evidence that Jesus created the universe.
Now just picture Jesus sectioning off a section in existence and injecting it with an enormous amount of energy that is eternal in existence.
Where is the evidence that this happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 2:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 8:29 PM Taq has replied

  
Candle3
Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 258 of 537 (916240)
02-27-2024 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ICANT
02-27-2024 2:28 PM


Re: Apologetically Speaking
CANT, you stated:
Mankind is the only living life form that can disobey God.
***Prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 2:28 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13140
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 259 of 537 (916243)
02-27-2024 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Admin
02-26-2024 6:40 AM


Moderator on Duty
I haven't posted in three days, so I will begin moderating this thread. In Message 220 I posted:
Admin in Message 220 writes:
I'm not moderating this thread, but I think two things would be helpful:
  • The thread originator should become more focused on his topic.
  • Everyone else should also remain focused on the topic and not on the people discussing the topic.
If these continue to be issues then tomorrow I will be imposing post limits, beginning at 5 messages/day and decrementing by one each day that these issues continue.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Admin, posted 02-26-2024 6:40 AM Admin has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(1)
Message 260 of 537 (916244)
02-27-2024 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ICANT
02-27-2024 2:15 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
ICANT in Message 255 writes:
How about we start off with an energy source of pure energy that is unlimited.
Pure energy, huh?
So, how did you determine the purity of the energy?
I guess this implies that there are other impure forms of energy?
What form does this pure energy take, is it supercharged electrons, or gamma rays, high power lasers, big springs being stretched or compressed, gasoline that can explode?
That energy source exists in an eternal existence.
Ok, How did you test to confirm its eternal existence, what kind of tests did you do? And if it's eternal, how do you get it out of the source?
That would mean that there was a light period in that existence because energy is not black.
Good, so far we have energy that is:
1. pure
2. eternal
3. not black
How long had that light period lasted, eternally in the past and the future.
I'm missing your point here. If something is eternal, asking how long it lasted doesn't seem answerable.
We have daylight (day) and darkness (night) due to the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun, but existence is not affected by our conditions. Those conditions were created for mankind to function.
So day and night were created so mankind could function, but it doesn't affect existence? Please explain.
Now just picture Jesus sectioning off a section in existence and injecting it with an enormous amount of energy that is eternal in existence.
Do you mean like with a great big syringe sucking up the energy from existence, and squirting it into eternal existence?
Or more like a big spatula scraping energy that already exists in eternity into an eternal existence?
Can you even get an inkling of what kind of light show that would create when all that energy began to move at the speed of light at the same time ?
I can't really get an inkling. So the energy was motionless until it started moving at the speed of light, all at once? What forces kept it motionless and what forces caused it to start moving?
It could have started out the size of the Milky Way and Andromedia combined, to start with at the moment Jesus began to move it around to start creating all the parts and pieces of the universe we see and do not see?
I'm not sure what your question here is. Is Jesus moving light around like shining a flashlight in different directions?
You ask could it have been bigger? The answer would be yes, it could of been just as big as Jesus wanted it to be as when He created the Universe He had all power required to do anything.
Good, we don't have to even think about sizes because it was every possible size all at once.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 2:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 11:21 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 261 of 537 (916246)
02-27-2024 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ICANT
02-27-2024 1:05 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
No

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 1:05 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 262 of 537 (916247)
02-27-2024 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Taq
02-27-2024 2:51 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Where is the evidence that this happened?
The universe is full of energy.
The universe is not going to die for a lack of energy just the opposite it will melt with fervent heat.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Taq, posted 02-27-2024 2:51 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2024 9:44 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 264 by NosyNed, posted 02-27-2024 10:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 270 by Taq, posted 02-28-2024 10:31 AM ICANT has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(1)
Message 263 of 537 (916248)
02-27-2024 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by ICANT
02-27-2024 8:29 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
ICANT in Message 262 writes:
The universe is full of energy.
Do you mean there's energy everywhere in the Universe or do you mean there's no more room for energy in the Universe?
ICANT in Message 262 writes:
The universe is not going to die for a lack of energy just the opposite it will melt with fervent heat.
Can you explain further?
What is the mechanism of this melting and just exactly what is melting?
Is it dripping too?
Can a sun melt?
How hot will it get?
Is there more energy being created and if it can melt, why hasn't already melted?
Is fervent heat that new green energy I've been hearing about?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 8:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2024 12:18 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9012
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(3)
Message 264 of 537 (916249)
02-27-2024 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by ICANT
02-27-2024 8:29 PM


Hot stuff
The universe is not going to die for a lack of energy just the opposite it will melt with fervent heat.
Since this makes no sense may I guess you might have read the phrase "heat death" somewhere?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 8:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 11:33 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 265 of 537 (916250)
02-27-2024 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Tanypteryx
02-27-2024 4:42 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
Hi Tany,
Tanypteryx writes:
Pure energy, huh?
Yes you guys like to talk about dark energy and dark matter so I thought I would keep it clean.
Tanypteryx writes:
I guess this implies that there are other impure forms of energy?
Science talks about Dark energy and I suppose it makes dark matter.
Tanypteryx writes:
What form does this pure energy take, is it supercharged electrons, or gamma rays, high power lasers, big springs being stretched or compressed, gasoline that can explode?
None of those fancy things just that the energy had the ability to do work and had the ability to follow orders and construct the most beautiful universe there is.
Tanypteryx writes:
Ok, How did you test to confirm its eternal existence, what kind of tests did you do? And if it's eternal, how do you get it out of the source?
Since Jesus is the source and the controller of that energy it is like the angels and do His will.
Science has proved you can't get something from nothing therefore the universe has to be eternal in existence in some form. But not necessarily as we see it today.
Tanypteryx writes:
I'm missing your point here. If something is eternal, asking how long it lasted doesn't seem answerable.
The light period came to a close to get the earth ready for us to inhabit it. but in existence where God is has never flickered, in all of eternity.
Tanypteryx writes:
So day and night were created so mankind could function, but it doesn't affect existence? Please explain.
If we did not have night for the earth to cool down and especially all the asphalt and concrete we have we would be in trouble living above ground.
If we had 3 suns the same distance from the earth just placed around the earth at thirds of the earth so we had midday all the time how long do you think it would take for the earth to be uninhabitable. The heat from the suns would just keep building getting hotter and hotter.
But God knew exactly what we needed for us to survive and that is what He created, it was no accident.
The earth exists as it does so we can live on it. The earth having days and nights does not affect existence. When you compare our little section of the universe compared to the rest of the universe we are very small.
You ask how old is the universe? Science is talking about 28 billion years now but there is no way to know how big it is.
Tanypteryx writes:
Do you mean like with a great big syringe sucking up the energy from existence, and squirting it into eternal existence?
No clown. He would only have to think it there. Remember He is all powerful.
Tanypteryx writes:
Or more like a big spatula scraping energy that already exists in eternity into an eternal existence? l/qs] That would be a big spatula wouldn't it.
[qs= So the energy was motionless until it started moving at the speed of light, all at once?
I could swear I thought I asked that question 15 years ago, about that little bitty thing that took off at light speed 13.8 billion years ago. I also ask why did it take it so long since in was under all that pressure of holding the entire universe in such a small place why it didn't start sooner. I still haven't got an answer.
Tanypteryx writes:
I'm not sure what your question here is. Is Jesus moving light around like shining a flashlight in different directions?
Why would He be moving a light He is light, When He is in His glorified body.
Tanypteryx writes:
Good, we don't have to even think about sizes because it was every possible size all at once.
Existence was everywhere, which means energy was everywhere . He could have started with any size even that little pea sized universe or smaller.
Jesus has been building the universe since the beginning whenever that was, until He got it like He wanted it. You say how long did it take Him? Just one light period.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2024 4:42 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-04-2024 1:20 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 266 of 537 (916251)
02-27-2024 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by NosyNed
02-27-2024 10:34 PM


Re: Hot stuff
Hi Ned,
This is the first we have talked to each other in years.
NosyNed writes:
Since this makes no sense may I guess you might have read the phrase "heat death" somewhere?
Yes I have heard of it but no that is not where I get it from.
quote:
2Pe 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Can you imagine that fisherman 2000 years coming up with such a statement?
The reason for it melting is it is tainted with sin and has to be cleansed. No problem God is going to create another one without sin in it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by NosyNed, posted 02-27-2024 10:34 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(1)
Message 267 of 537 (916252)
02-27-2024 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ICANT
02-27-2024 1:15 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT in Message 249 writes:
I got about 3000 post trying to find out what existed that created the universe and where the energy came from to do so. The only answer I have got so far is that "we don't know."
Well, you didn't say how many times people posted "we don't know" or if there is a problem with that answer.
Did people say they knew the answer and then it turned out they didn't?
Do you think people know the answers and are refusing to tell you?
But just keep hanging around with both feet on the floor and I will get to it shortly. We had a busy weekend at Church and things are still hectic around the house as my wife had surgery on her legs last week.
I have been busy too, but I can post here while my imaging computer is processing photos for me. My grandson is home on leave for the first time in 2.5 years and I'm meeting my great-grandson for the first time. Some kinds of busy are more enjoyable than others.
Take care.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 1:15 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 268 of 537 (916253)
02-28-2024 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Tanypteryx
02-27-2024 9:44 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
Hi Tany,
Tanypteryx writes:
Do you mean there's energy everywhere in the Universe or do you mean there's no more room for energy in the Universe?
There is energy everywhere in existence and since the universe exists in existence.
You guys call it CMB don't you?
Tanypteryx writes:
Can you explain further?
At Planck time the universe was said to be about 100 million trillion trillion kelvins (equivalent to 180 million trillion trillion degrees Fahrenheit).
I think it was referred to as a soup.
I think something similar to that would be sufficient.
Tanypteryx writes:
Is there more energy being created
Energy can not be created you know that.
Energy can be recycled.
Tanypteryx writes:
Is fervent heat that new green energy I've been hearing about?
No. More like the BB early universe.
Green energy is removing the green dollars from your pockets into their pockets.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2024 9:44 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Admin, posted 02-28-2024 7:27 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 271 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-28-2024 11:34 AM ICANT has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13140
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 269 of 537 (916254)
02-28-2024 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by ICANT
02-28-2024 12:18 AM


Please Begin Discussing Your Topic
My understanding was that you were going to connect the Jesus of history, as opposed to the Christ of faith, to the creation of the universe:
ICANT in Message 1 writes:
In this thread I will discuss Jesus roll in the creation of the universe and His Physical roll on earth.
Please begin making progress toward that goal.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ICANT, posted 02-28-2024 12:18 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10385
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 270 of 537 (916255)
02-28-2024 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by ICANT
02-27-2024 8:29 PM


Re: I CANTS Retro Thread
ICANT writes:
The universe is full of energy.

The universe is not going to die for a lack of energy just the opposite it will melt with fervent heat.
Where is the evidence that this energy came from Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 8:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by ICANT, posted 02-29-2024 9:02 AM Taq has replied

  
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