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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9624
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 286 of 537 (916326)
03-01-2024 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


I guess you finally realised that you had nothing to say about how a guy called Jesus that might have lived 2,000 years ago could have created a universe that's 13+ billion years old. Well maybe you've learned something.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6182
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 287 of 537 (916328)
03-01-2024 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


So you continue to refuse to do anything to support your claim.
You continue to insist that "disproving" some pitifully nonsensical strawman idiocy intended to represent some "opposing view" is supposed to "prove" your beyond-massively important bit of nonsense.
HOW again?
That is nothing more than creationism's "Two Model Approach" yet again. Complete and utter stupid bullshit.
Do you have an actual argument or not?
If not, then please just simply fuck off, already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 288 of 537 (916330)
03-01-2024 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


You fancied yourself a missionary to the godless evolutionists, but if we don't already believe you without evidence, you won't show us the evidence?
Our souls teeter on the verge of damnation ... and you wanna play golf?! Or go to the spa?
Your rhetoric rings as hollow as your faith.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2024 4:38 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13135
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 289 of 537 (916334)
03-01-2024 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


ICANT in Message 285 writes:
Can we now move on to the topic of the thread?
This is strongly recommended.
Your daily post limit has been set to 4.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8705
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 290 of 537 (916338)
03-01-2024 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


#9
quote:
Robert M. Price (an atheist who denies the existence of Jesus) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X p. 61

An atheist who denies the existence of Jesus says he is in the minority of scholars
This majority of biblical scholars he refers to are christian apologists. They ARE NOT independent minded. They are believers and their motivations are emotional not academic. Their scholarship is suspect at best. Rejected.
Regardless, please continue your Jesus energy tale.
If you guys are not going to accept any evidence I present and will not even believe Robert M. Price an atheist who does not believe Jesus ever existed I am just spinning my wheels and wasting good time I could spend with my wife going to the spa, playing golf or just visiting with friends.
Now you know how we feel trying to present reality to you. You knee-jerk reject all evidence and ignore the inconvenient facts. At least we are paying attention to the discussion instead of pouting about how no one believes your stuff.
Buck up, buttercup. If we can weather the storm of dissent then so can you.
Now, again, please get on with this Jesus energy scam you are trying to pull.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 291 of 537 (916342)
03-01-2024 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


ICANT in Message 285 writes:
If you guys are not going to accept any evidence I present and will not even believe Robert M. Price an atheist who does not believe Jesus ever existed I am just spinning my wheels and wasting good time I could spend with my wife going to the spa, playing golf or just visiting with friends.
Well, we don't know if your evidence should be accepted or not until you present it.
I'm beginning to think you were telling porkies and it will turn out that your whole argument is "The Historic Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?" I foolishly expected more.
We can't reject your evidence until you present it.
Here you are with a free forum with people begging you to present your hypothesis and the evidence that supports it and that explains all our observations and you run away like a shy little girl.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10384
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 292 of 537 (916346)
03-01-2024 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
03-01-2024 12:58 AM


ICANT writes:
If you guys are not going to accept any evidence I present and will not even believe Robert M. Price an atheist who does not believe Jesus ever existed I am just spinning my wheels and wasting good time I could spend with my wife going to the spa, playing golf or just visiting with friends.
The quality of evidence does not depend on who is presenting it.
We will accept or reject evidence based on merit, not who it is coming from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 03-01-2024 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 293 of 537 (916348)
03-01-2024 12:17 PM


Priorities
ICANT was likely hoping that you (the peanut gallery) would at least consider that Jesus was(is) alive and DID exist. I don't know the Pastor that well, but I believe that I know the Jesus that He knows. Since this *is* a Faith & Belief thread, how on earth do you expect ICANT to provide objective verifiable evidence that Jesus created all that is, seen and unseen?
Tany writes:
We will accept or reject evidence based on merit, not who it is coming from.
Many Christians grow stronger in their faith through trusting a process. Without getting too specific, that process is Communion.
Here you are with a free forum with people begging you to present your hypothesis and the evidence that supports it and that explains all our observations and you run away like a shy little girl.
ICANT is over 80. He and his wife may be accustomed to surrounding themselves with friends/seekers with open hearts and/or minds rather than dispassionate critics.
|EvC is like an intellectual hazing.
AZHazer writes:
The majority of biblical scholars he refers to are Christian apologists. They ARE NOT independent-minded. They are believers and their motivations are emotional, not academic. Their scholarship is suspect at best.
Why should data and evidence and indeed science and philosophy itself be without emotion? Is emotion antithetical to Critical Thought?
Rejected.
Who? Jesus?
Omni writes:
You fancied yourself a missionary to the godless evolutionists, but if we don't already believe you without evidence, you won't show us the evidence?

Our souls teeter on the verge of damnation ... and you wanna play golf?! Or go to the spa?
Do you expect him to leave his church, give up all that he has, and spend his retirement years typing on EvC Forum? This is hard ground here. The seed gets eaten by birds and blown away by the wind. If you all haven't received it by now, perhaps it is better to go to the spa and play golf!

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2024 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 295 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2024 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 296 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-01-2024 12:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 297 by Taq, posted 03-01-2024 3:31 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 298 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2024 3:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9624
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 294 of 537 (916350)
03-01-2024 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
03-01-2024 12:17 PM


Re: Priorities
Phat writes:
ICANT was likely hoping that you (the peanut gallery) would at least consider that Jesus was(is) alive and DID exist.
Then he's a fool. Why would we accept that Jesus is alive? Because he says so? We agreed to put aside our skepticism that he ever lived at all so that he could advance his argument that Jesus created the universe. He never even started.
Since this *is* a Faith & Belief thread, how on earth do you expect ICANT to provide objective verifiable evidence that Jesus created all that is, seen and unseen?
It's ICANT's thread - "In this thread I will discuss Jesus roll in the creationn of the universe and His Physical roll on earth."
So forgive us for expecting him to do that. I suspect he worked out pretty quickly that he couldn't do what he said he was going to do - so he spent pages waffling about cosmology that he doesn't understand the first thing about and now he's now run away. Epic.
Is emotion antithetical to Critical Thought?
You really had to ask that? Sheesh...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8705
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 295 of 537 (916351)
03-01-2024 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
03-01-2024 12:17 PM


Re: Priorities
Why should data and evidence and indeed science and philosophy itself be without emotion? Is emotion antithetical to Critical Thought?
Phat, you know this. Yes, emotion is to be avoided in science. Emotional decisions are too unreliable, as the last 500 years of humanity have shown. That's why the scientific methods don't include blocks like "Relax - Take a warm sitz bath - Contemplate".
Rejected.
Who? Jesus?
Ok. That's good. I could accept that.
But, what I was rejecting was his evidence that "scholars" say this Jesus is real. No. Apologists are not scholars since their scholarly detachment has fallen into fervent belief.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 296 of 537 (916352)
03-01-2024 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
03-01-2024 12:17 PM


Re: Priorities
Phat in Message 293 writes:
ICANT is over 80. He and his wife may be accustomed to surrounding themselves with friends/seekers with open hearts and/or minds rather than dispassionate critics.

|EvC is like an intellectual hazing.
ICANT proposed this topic. We thought he was going to show us something interesting.
We have literally begged him to tell us his hypothesis, but instead he quibbled about what we think.
If his hypothesis is about the creation of the Universe, you would think it would need fairly complex explanations for all the observations that we already posses and that are better than the explanations scientists have already made, wouldn't you?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10384
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 297 of 537 (916353)
03-01-2024 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
03-01-2024 12:17 PM


Re: Priorities
Phat writes:
Since this *is* a Faith & Belief thread, how on earth do you expect ICANT to provide objective verifiable evidence that Jesus created all that is, seen and unseen?
If it is a faith based belief than I'm fine with that. Just say that it is. While some may criticize faith, I'm not one of them. Religious faith is a pretty standard part of the human condition when we look at the population as a whole.
The other issue is that in order to make room for a faith based belief, ICANT seems to be rejecting a rather well evidenced scientific theory in the form of the Big Bang Theory. The solution would seem to be a faith based belief that Jesus created the energy found at the beginning of the Big Bang, but ICANT doesn't seem to want to go there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 12:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6182
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 298 of 537 (916354)
03-01-2024 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
03-01-2024 12:17 PM


Re: Priorities
Is emotion antithetical to Critical Thought?
Actually, yes it is.
Consider the Robin Williams joke (paraphrased here):
Robin Williams paraphrased:
Here's proof the God has a sense of humor. He gave Man two heads, but not enough blood to use both of them at the same time.
That second head is of course the penis.
But that joke does illustrate something that's been found to happen in the brain. Basically, we use the neo-cortex for rational thought and the limbic system for emotional reaction (which includes the amygdala which handles strong emotions like fear and which has been found to be enlarged (and hence hyperactive) in the brains of "conservatives" like MAGAts). Medical scans have shown that when we experience strong emotions like fear or anger, blood flow to the neo-cortex shuts down and is redirected to the limbic system. IOW, when we see red then we have stopped thinking and cannot act rationally.
So then, yes, emotions are antithetical to rational thought and hence to critical thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 12:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 3:57 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 299 of 537 (916357)
03-01-2024 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by dwise1
03-01-2024 3:32 PM


Re: Priorities
Tangle writes:
​Why would we accept that Jesus is alive?
Why should you try so hard to kill Him again? They already tried once, you know.
Tangle writes:
Why would we accept that Jesus is alive? Because he says so?
Perhaps ICANT actually hoped that some of you liked him. Even the Forum Administrator started lopping off his post count despite him not exceeding it initially.
Among my favorite scriptures were these: Matthew 10:40 and Luke 10:16.
While words from a book are not objective *proof* per se, one may wonder why, if hypothetically a Man created all that is seen and unseen and you claimed to hypothetically believe that He existed you would be so eager to shoot the messenger.
dwise, addressing ICANT writes:
Do you have an actual argument or not?
If not, then please just simply fuck off, already.
In other words get lost, you liar. Quit bullshitting us. Shut up!
The spirit of the age is strong here.
Taq writes:
If it is a faith-based belief then I'm fine with that. Just say that it is. While some may criticize faith, I'm not one of them. Religious faith is a pretty standard part of the human condition when we look at the population as a whole.

The other issue is that in order to make room for a faith-based belief, ICANT seems to be rejecting a rather well-evidenced scientific theory in the form of the Big Bang Theory. The solution would seem to be a faith-based belief that Jesus created the energy found at the beginning of the Big Bang, but ICANT doesn't seem to want to go there.
Go where? Down a cold Black Hole with no concern for humanity?
dwise1 writes:
Basically, we use the neo-cortex for rational thought and the limbic system for emotional reaction (which includes the amygdala which handles strong emotions like fear and which has been found to be enlarged (and hence hyperactive) in the brains of "conservatives" like MAGAts). Medical scans have shown that when we experience strong emotions like fear or anger, blood flow to the neo-cortex shuts down and is redirected to the limbic system. IOW, when we see red then we have stopped thinking and cannot act rationally.

So then, yes, emotions are antithetical to rational thought and hence to critical thought.
so when you told him to *fuck off* were you being
  • Rational
  • Emotional
    or
  • Drunk?
    Just asking. I think this topic has been concluded since the author left us.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 298 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2024 3:32 PM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 300 by Taq, posted 03-01-2024 4:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 302 by Theodoric, posted 03-01-2024 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 303 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2024 5:10 PM Phat has replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 10384
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    (2)
    Message 300 of 537 (916358)
    03-01-2024 4:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
    03-01-2024 3:57 PM


    Re: Priorities
    Phat writes:
    Go where? Down a cold Black Hole with no concern for humanity?
    Go exactly where I stated, to a position where Jesus created the energy and spacetime that then expanded and developed into the universe we see today. I'm pretty sure that was the position of the guy who came up with the Big Bang Theory to begin with, the Jesuit priest George Lemaitre.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 299 by Phat, posted 03-01-2024 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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