Request for info on the Nephilim

quote:

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Hello,

​

I read your emails at EvC Forum and visited the Mt. Blanco
[creationist]
Museum website, the site that features a photo of a "giant human
femur."
But the Mt. Blanco webpage admits that the "femur" pictured on their
site
is not a genuine femur, but just a sculpture that the owner of the
museum
molded in order to illustrate an unsubstantiated story. The story came
from a letter published apparently in an unnamed Christian publication
by
an unnamed Christian, neither does the original story even mention
"femurs," not once! The
part of the letter that concerns us states:
"In south-east Turkey in the Euphrates Valley and in Homs and at
Uran-Zohra, tombs of about four meters long once existed, but now roads
and other construction work has destroyed the spots. At two places,
when
unearthed because of construction work, the leg bones were measured
about
120 cms [47" long]. It sounds unbelievable. I have lived with my family
at
Ain-Tell for more than 14 years at the very spot where King
Nebuchadnezzar
had his headquarters after the battle of Charcamish, where I dug the
graves of kings’ officers and found their skeletons like sponge, and
when
you touch them they become like white ash, with spears and silex and
obsidian tools and ammunition laying by."

​

The original letter does not say "femur," it says, "leg bones."
Perhaps
in the great state of Texas in the USA, where the Mr. Blanco
[creationist]
Museum resides, they refer to the "fermur" colloquially as the "leg
bone"
(singular), but the Middle Easterner who wrote the above letter
referred
to "leg bones" [plural] when he stated, "at two places... the leg bones
[plural] were measured about 47" long." So the word "femur" was not
mentioned at all, and leaving aside Texas colloquialisms, the "leg
bones"
in this case probably refers to all the bones of the leg, the total
"leg"
length. I wear 34-36" long pants, so my "leg bones" measure about 36."
The "leg bones" mentioned above were maybe 11" inches longer than mine.
Such a skeleton might be a few feet taller than me, as I'm only 6'3"
tall,
but not "14-16 feet tall" as the Mt. Blanco Museum calculates, based on
their assumption that "the leg bones" mean just "femurs."

​

All in all, a human whose legs were 11" longer than mine is large, but
not
beyond the known range of human variation. See for instance: E. Cobham
Brewer 1810—1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898 , "Giants of
Real
Life." Mr. Brewer collected a long list of "human giant" stories from
throughout history and their alleged heights, and his conclusion, as
stated at one point in his list, was that "...no recorded height of any
human giant known has reached 10 feet... The nearest approach to it was
Gabara, the Arabian giant (9 feet 9 inches) mentioned by Pliny, and
Middleton of Lancashire (9 feet 3 inches) mentioned by Dr. Plott."

​

By the way, the Middle East does contain some "long narrow graves" as
even
Mark Twain pointed out in his INNOCENTS ABROAD, and one such grave that
Twain visited was "210 ft. long but only four feet high." (Twain
remarked
that the person buried in that tomb must have been shaped as tall and
thin
as a lightning rod.)

​

Also, please not that the largest Protestant denomination in America,
The
Southern Baptist Convention (that promote young-earth creationism) has
argued for toning down the heights of "human giants" mentioned in the
Bible. See the following paragraphs from "Giants in the Land" by
Harold
Mosley, an article that appeared in THE BIBLICAL ILLUSTRATOR, 30:2
Winter
2003-04, a Sunday School publication put out by the Southern Baptist
Convention:

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"GIANTS IN THE LAND" [with additional comments by me, E.T.B.]

​

The Bible mentioned the "nephilim" and "rephaim" in Genesis and Exodus.
It was the King James translators who rendered those words "giants"
while
other translators simply transliterate the Hebrew word into English as
"Nephilim." Scholars argue over the exact meaning of the word. The
context of Genesis 6 is not precise enough to determine anything about
the
Nephilim except that they appear as unusual individuals... Concerning
Numbers 13:33, the comparison of the spies being like grasshoppers next
to
the Nephilim certainly must have been an exaggeration. Otherwise, if
the
comparison were taken literally, the Nephilim would be more than one
hundred feet tall. [Oddly enough a few Christians in the past DID take
such a comparison literally and argued that the Nephilim were over a
hundred feet tall. I mentioned such extravagant beliefs in my article
on
the web. The Book of Enoch, Cotton Matter and some unnamed Frenchman
suggested fantastically large "giants in the earth." -- E.T.B.]...

​

If the Anakim were tall compared to the Hebrews, how tall were the
Hebrews? Based on ancient Hebrew skeletons excavated at archeological
digs, the average male's height ranged from 5'5" to 5'7". Since the
ancient Hebrews generally saw themselves as smaller than other peoples,
the biblical writers often noted unusual height. (For instance Isaiah
18:2,7 described the Ethiopians as a people "tall and smooth." Also,
the
fact that Saul stood taller than other Israelites was noted in 1 Sam.
10:23) ... King Og of Moab, Deut. 3:11 had a bed measuring 9 cubits
long
and 4 cubits wide (13 ft by 6 ft) [but that does not mean King Og was
the
same size as his bed. -- E.T.B.]... The record of the height of
Goliath,
as mentioned in 1 Sam. 17:4 is not consistent among all the ancient
versions of 1 Samuel. The Hebrew records for Goliath say he was 6
cubits
and a span (a cubit was roughly 18 inches, a span about 9 inches), so
Goliath would be about 9'9" tall. Other ancient versions like the
Septuagint lists Goliath at 4 cubits and a span, which would make
Goliath
closer to 6'9" in height. Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews says
Goliath was about 6'8", which would still be considered a giant among
the
Hebrew people. However, the description of the weight of Goliath's
armor
suggests a much larger man than even a 7 foot tall individual to carry
such weight. His bronze coat weighted "5,000 shekels," an astounding
125
pounds. [Of course, speaking of the number "5,000" as in the afore
mentioned weight of "5,000" shekels, it must be kept in mind that the
Hebrew authors were prone to rounding off and probably exaggerating
them,
which was common in the ancient world regarding the numbers of people
and
booty captured during wars. It can also be seen the case of enemies
killed
by Hebrews in battle as mentioned in the book of Judges, featuring
reports
of "500" or "600" or even "1000" enemies all killed by one Hebrew in a
single fight, the Hebrew only using either an ox goad, a spear, or even
the jawbone of an ass. Elsewhere in the Bible, King David leaves his
son
a huge rounded off number of pounds of gold and silver in order to
build a
temple, but the number given in the Bible is so huge it's nearly enough
to
nearly fill a modern day Fort Knox, which seems unusual for a
relatively
small kingdom in the ancient world that didn't have modern mining
techniques. So, the number "5000" for the weight of Goliath's armor
is
probably an exaggerated and rounded off estimate. See the two pieces at
the end of my email on Samson and Solomon. -- E.T.B.]

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END OF EXCERPTS, ABOVE, FROM "GIANTS IN THE LAND"

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ED: So where are the truly gigantic human bones? Can you show me one?
I
have already discussed the Mt. Blanco sculpture of a "giant human
femur,"
but the word, "femur," was not found in the letter they based their
scupture upon. So out of the "hundreds" of cases you know about, show
me
one truly gigantic human bone that is from a human being who was much
taller than 9 feet in height. (Big Foot "prints," and Gigantopithecus
bones, excluded.)

​

The largest-known primate was Gigantopithecus, of the Middle
Pleistocene
of what is now northern Vietnam and southern China. Males would have
stood an estimated 2.74 m 9 ft tall and weighed about 272 kg 600 lb.
It
is risky, however, to correlate tooth size and jaw depth of primates
with
their height and body weight, and Gigantopithecus may have had a
disproportionately large head, jaws and teeth for his body size. The
only
remains that have been discovered so far are three partial lower jaws
and
more than 1,000 teeth.

​

Evolution at least has bones, and in fact has enough of them to fill
more
than just "one coffin," as creationists now admit. See the two
quotations
below:
QUOTATION #1
Michael Oard, a creationist writing in CRSQ, admitted:
"I was surprised to find that instead of enough fossils barely to fit
into
a coffin, as one evolutionist once stated [in 1982], there were over
4,000
hominid fossils as of 1976. Over 200 specimens have been classified as
Neanderthal and about one hundred as Homo erectus. More of these
fossils
have been found since 1976." [ Review of the book, Bones of
Contention:
A Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils, in the Creation Research
Society Quarterly, Vol. 30, March 1994, p. 222 ]
QUOTATION #2
And, Martin Lubenow, creationist and author of Bones of Contention: A
Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils, also admitted about six months
later in the same creationist journal:
"The current figures [circa 1994] are even more impressive: over 220
Homo
erectus fossil individuals discovered to date, possibly as many as 80
archaic Homo sapiens fossil individuals discovered to date, and well
over
300 Neanderthal fossil individuals discovered to date. [ Letter to the
editor of the Creation Research Society Quarterly, Vol. 31, Sept. 1994,
p.
70 ]
Please visit Fossil Hominids: the evidence for human evolution sometime to look
at
all the skulls and their cranial capacities, and tell me where exactly
where the "creationist" gap lay. The cranial capacities of all the
known
hominid fossils lie along a spectrum. (The site also has a section on
"anomalous fossils.")

​

Best,
Edward T. Babinski, author, LEAVING THE FOLD: TESTIMONIES OF FORMER
FUNDAMENTALISTS, Prometheus Books, paperback Nov. 2003
Scrivenings

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and

quote:

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I have more info in my paper files at
home. For instance, a few years ago Kent Hovind and Carl Baugh claimed
that there were three New York Times articles that mentioned "human
giants" and I obtained the exact three articles they had cited, and
found
nothing very extraordiinary in any of them. I have that perhaps in an
email in my huge backfile of emails on my home computer.

​

Dr. Stephen Meyers (who is a Christian who runs an incredibly
informative
site, that includes his masters thesis on the ancient near eastern
millieu
of Genesis, and includes a weekly review of the latest articles in the
press concerning creationism/I.D./science/religion, and who has debated
Kent Hovind and has articles on his site that critique arguments from
every major "creation evangelist"), recently sent me additional info on
the height of Goliath and other human giants:

​

"How tall was Goliath? The MT says, 'six cubits and a span' while the
Dead
Sea Scroll 4QSama says, 'four cubits and a span.' People don't usually
grow to be over 9 foot tall, so the 'four cubits'(7 feet) seems the
most
reasonable height of Goliath. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a thousand years
older than the MT. So I am going with the Dead Sea Scroll reading.

​

"I think probably most of the large bones that people found in ancient
times were of extinct animals. A mammoth tusk was thought to be the
horn
of a unicorn. A giant fossil giraffe skull could easily been mistaken
for
a dragon. Many giant fossil giraffe skulls from the Miocene Epoch are
found around the Mediterranean (Mayor, 2000 p. 161). There is a very
good
book that goes into details about this entitled THE FIRST FOSSIL
HUNTERS
by Adrienne Mayor (To her web site Click Here). Sincerely, Steve"

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provided by ed babinski who requested me to put his writing on evc which should help discussion of giants & nephilim.

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-chris

Thanks Chris, nice to see you're still hanging around. How 'bout your brother?edited to add the question...Chris, have you been corresponding with Ed B. or reading his material?[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 03-07-2004]

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

Yeah, Ed Babinski has been emailing me.
As for the return of iron man, I don't know.

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-chris

I did a study on this issue before you made your post string.
Here is the best footnoted article on the web I saw regarding the issue you are concerned about: http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.htmlSincerely,Ken[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 03-10-2004]

Red Haired Giants by Mary Sutherlandpicture of fossilized irish giant http://216.10.26.55/GIANTS/Fossilized_Irish_Giant.htmwww.stevequayle.comCreate a Website | Tripod Web Hosting Holocaust of Giants:
The Great Smithsonian Cover-up http://216.10.26.55/GIANTS/Giants_Smithsonian.htm

"NephilimAlthough their origin has been interpreted various ways, the Nephilim existed very early in human history. Independent Egyptian records of about 2000 BC also record their existence."The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown." (Genesis 6:4 RSV)
"And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim; and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them." (Numbers 13:33 RSV)RephaimThe Rephaim occupied the land prior to the Canaanites, but were eventually defeated. The Anakim, Zuzim, and Emim people were related."In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and subdued the Rephaim" (Genesis 14:5 RSV)
"For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits [i.e. about 13 feet / 4 meters] was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit." (Deuteronomy 3:11 RSV)AnakimThe Anakim lived in the south, near Hebron. They were defeated by the Israelites under Joshua."tall as the Anakim" (Deuteronomy 2:21 RSV)
"And Joshua came at that time, and wiped out the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel; Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities." (Joshua 11:21 RSV)EmimThe Emim were a warrior tribe of giants who were defeated by Chedorlaomer and his allies. Around the time of Abraham, they lived east of the Jordan."In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and subdued the Rephaim in Ashterothkarnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shavehkiriathaim" (Genesis 14:5 RSV)
"The Emim formerly lived there, a people great and many, and tall as the Anakim." (Deuteronomy 2:10 RSV) "Even just taking Goliath as an example.
Saul being 'head or shoulders' above the people we can guess as being quite tall. Saul was scared to death of Goliaths presence and cowered in his tent waiting for a hero of some sort(David).
Even if one wants to eek out some very mild and unfounded explanation for the 'supposed' inaccurate weight of Goliaths body armour the entire account still stands as a whole.
Goliath had a shield so large he needed his own shieldbearer and it also talks of other huge accessories like his enormous spearhead. It also speak of David later on carting Goliaths enormous sword around with him.
The fact that the philistines all pushed this Goliath to the front as their ambassador alone, obviously makes him special in at least some physical attribute.
Maybe he just was very well endowed!!?

Hi Z,
I am sure you checked, and found that the "scholarship" does know.The idea of real big powerful men is a Hebrew meaning of nephilim, as I am certain you have been advised by now. It is used elsewhere in that way.However, the story about nephilim and sons of men, and daughters of men, and the sons of God, taking daughters of men in marriage, plus the mighty men (the off-spring or hybirds) is totally unknown to scholars.The wild guesses you refer to are about as good as it gets.I particularly do NOT like those guesses which lead us back to the roots of animism. Spiritual beings, ghostly creatures fallen from heaven, spiritualism... animism... back into the barbarianism of heathen spiritualism not a good Christian direction, backwards.Here is a take on the matter from the Freudian Bible Translation and Interpretation:Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men (hominoids) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,Gen. 6:2 That the sons of God (pre-Homo Spaiens) saw the daughters of men (Neanderthal) that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.Gen. 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit (of Natural Law) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh (and must adapt to my Reality): yet his days, (Neanderthal) shall be an hundred and twenty (thousand) years.Gen. 6:4 There were giants (Homo Erectus) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (pre-Homo Spaiens) came in unto the daughters of men (Neanderthal), and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men (hybrids leading to Modern Homo Sapiens) which were of old, men of renown.

they're also briefly mentioned in numbers 13.as pointed out earlier, the word seems to come from "naphal" meaning to fall.

I know of several books that delve into the mysteries of the Nephilim and Giants. Some are rather scholarly:Book suggestions:Giants in those days : folklore, ancient history, and nationalism / Walter Stephens. Lincoln : University of Nebraska Press, c1989.

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Corpus Maritanius 1964 -

Genesis 6: Giants: Master Builders of Prehistoric and Ancient Civilizations/ Stephen Quayle. 8-1/2" x 11", 479 pp; Paperback - 2002
(I have this book and found it to be very interesting). But most of the info in the book can be found at Stephen's own website! at: stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.htmlI am sure there are a lot more books you can search on Amazon if you type in key words such as "Nephilim."As for my own personal view about the Nephilim. I certainly do not subscribe to the laughible idea that the Nephilim were giants 50 feet tall roaming around the landscape looking for people to step on. Neither do I believe that they rode in UFO's abducting farmers!I agree that the people of the ancient world and in the bible itself, there are all sorts of references to giants and powerful men of might and strength. The Old Testament is litered with refernces to the "sons of Anak" and the Rpha'im. These were odviously very powerful and influential tribes and nations who had among them men of tremendous physique and stature.These were all people between the 2 and 3 metres defined as the limits towards which mankind can grow.Bare in mind they probably appeared much taller with all of their helmets, armorment and weaponry.

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Corpus Maritanius 1964 -

"As the days of Noah were, so also shall the return of the Son of man be."

I was listening to a late night radio show (Coast to Coast AM)and low and behold they had Steve Quayle on their talking about "The Giants of the Solomon Islands."It was quite an entertaining show.He said that giants up to 24 feet tall! Roamed the Islands in the old days! Not to mention Aliens and UFO's....Too bad none of it's believeable..

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Corpus Maritanius 1964 -

but, but, art bell always speaks the truth!haha looks like they had hoagland on too.

i have always kind of translated that 'heroes of old' to be, loosely, the pagan-type gods. this paragraph you pasted seems to me to refer to such as the greek Deimos (terror), Phobos (fear), Eris (strife) and Enyo (horror).