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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
PaulK
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Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 466 of 537 (917165)
03-24-2024 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Candle3
03-24-2024 5:11 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
***You are right, Paulk. And I should gave done that. I will
quote the OT prophecy, and where it was fulfilled in the NT.
I didn’t ask for where the NT says it was fulfilled, since we’re talking about the historical Jesus you need to use the methods and standards of history. Good luck with that.
Besides, I’d the NT is all you have you don’t have anything impressive at all. Perhaps your time would be better spent showing where archaeology deals with the creation of the universe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Candle3, posted 03-24-2024 5:11 PM Candle3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Candle3, posted 03-26-2024 1:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 469 of 537 (917179)
03-25-2024 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Candle3
03-25-2024 11:19 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
I didn’t ask for NT “fulfilment”. I asked for historical confirmation.
quote:
Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem.
The two stories have significant disagreements and implausible elements with no confirmation in any other source - not even each other. Likely they were invented based on this prophecy, and Jesus was born in Nazareth. (One example problem - Matthew has Jesus born prior to the reign of Herod Archelaus - 2:22 makes this plain. Luke has Jesus born during the census of Quirinius, after Archelaus was deposed 2:1-2).
So, nothing incredible here.
quote:
Jesus would begin His ministry in Galilee.
Nothing about starting a ministry there. Indeed it seems to be predicting that Galilee will be incorporated into the Kingdom of Judah - and it seems to be very much rooted in the situation of the time of Isaiah as the preceding and following verses make clear.
So, no, not impressive at all.
quote:
The Scepter shall not depart from Judah. Genesis 49:10
It is completely unclear what you mean here. However, give that the Davidic line is lost, and there have been no kings of Judah at all for nearly 2000 years it’s really hard to call this one fulfilled (or specifically about Jesus who very likely was NOT of the line of David - the disagreements between Matthew and Luke give good reason to doubt both genealogies).
quote:
They would cast lots for the clothes of Jesus Psalms 22:18,
There isn’t even a good reason to think that this is a prophecy.
quote:
Jesus would teach in parables. Psalms 78:1-2
There is no reason to think that this is a prophecy at all.
quote:
the parables of Jesus were used to hide the their true
meaning from all except His elect. Isaiah 6:9-10,
Definitely not a prophecy those are instructions given to Isaiah.
quote:
Jesus betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:13-13
That requires an interesting interpretation of Zechariah. Is Zechariah a betrayer ? He is the one paid 30 pieces of silver. And where is Jesus in it?
quote:
Jesus would remain quiet before His accusers. Psalms 38:12-13
Again, not a prophecy.
So really this isn’t at all impressive. Even in the one case where you have an actual prophecy and an apparent fulfilment the fulfilment looks to be a fiction. Most aren’t even prophecies. The only impressive thing is that people somehow fall for this obvious nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Candle3, posted 03-25-2024 11:19 AM Candle3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 473 of 537 (917192)
03-25-2024 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Candle3
03-25-2024 3:28 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
*Passover Lamb was to be w/o blemish. Exodus 12:5.
Hebrews 9:14.

*Jesus was our Passover Lamb. (1Corinthians 5:7).Not a
born of His was to broken. Exodus 12:46. John 19:31-36.

*Jesus was to be forsakenby His Father. Psalms 22:1.
Matthew 27:46.

None of these are prophecies.
quote:
Jesus was to be the mediator of a new Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31. Matthew 26:28. Hebrews 8:6-13.
Which does not appear to have arrived. Jeremiah states that the new covenant will be with the people of Israel:
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more.
Is that actually the case? (And please spare me the ridiculous Anglo-Israelite nonsense).
Interestingly it states that Jerusalem would never be demolished - yet the Romans did demolish it after Jesus came. Jesus time on Earth did not see the fulfilment of that part of the prophecy either.
quote:
God would call His Son out of Egypt. Hosea11:1.
Matthew 2:14-15
Not a prophecy.
quote:
Jesus would have a forerunner before Him. Isaiah 40:3-4.
John 1:23.
No, it doesn’t say that and it appears to be speaking of Isaiah’s time.
quote:
His friends an followers would forsake Him. Psalms 31:11.
Mark :24:50.

*His body would not see decay. Psalms 16:9-11.
Acts 2:31.

*His crucifiers would give Him gall and wine to drink.
Psalms 69:21. Matthew 27:34.
Not prophecies.
quote:
Jesus would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14. Luke 1:34-35.
Matthew 1:23.
The actual prophecy is that the Assyrians would conquer Aram and Israel the birth of the child (not to a virgin) is a sign that that event would occur sometime in the next couple of years. Jesus was born centuries too late for that.
So again not at all impressive. When do we get to see the good stuff?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Candle3, posted 03-25-2024 3:28 PM Candle3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 477 of 537 (917206)
03-26-2024 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical Jesus.
And he has the same inability to make a rational case.
Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has some value.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Candle3, posted 04-05-2024 8:40 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 479 of 537 (917213)
03-26-2024 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by Candle3
03-26-2024 1:28 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
Paulk, don't play dumb.
You want me to be genuinely stupid, then? Because that’s what it would take to actually believe this nonsense you’ve put out.
I note that you can’t even answer even one of the points I made. You can’t even show that half of your ”fulfilled prophecies” even are prophecies!
So despite all your arrogant bluster, you’ve got nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Candle3, posted 03-26-2024 1:28 PM Candle3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 491 of 537 (917391)
04-05-2024 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by Candle3
04-05-2024 8:40 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT
did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical
Jesus.

And he has the same inability to make a rational case.

Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has
some value."

***What some do not understand is that there is Historical
evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are sources
outside of the Bible that speaks of a person known as
Jesus--Christ.
Which is not at all relevant to anything I said. Though I suppose that I should point out that Christian apologists tend to exaggerate the number of references.
quote:
The Bible states Jesus created the universe and all that is
in it. Evidence that Jesus actually existed, and that miracles
were attributed to Him, although circumstantial, exists.

None of that is historically established.
quote:
The United States and Great Britain are made up primarily
of Manasseh and GB, including Scotland, Canade, Australia,
New Zealand.
I did say to spare me the Anglo Israelite nonsense. Just because you unthinkingly swallow 19th century crank ideas - without bothering to investigate them - doesn’t mean that they are any less laughable than the Book of Mormon.
quote:
Ezekiel 7 contains a prophecy about what is happening in
America and GB at this very minute.

No, it does not. That was intended for Judah.
And your racist ranting is quite definitely off-topic, and certainly nothing to do with fulfilled prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Candle3, posted 04-05-2024 8:40 AM Candle3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 494 of 537 (917423)
04-07-2024 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Candle3
04-06-2024 4:39 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
***I take it that both you and Paulk are so accustomed to
making fulfilled prophecies that it is of no significance
when someone else does it
I guess you’re so used to people believing falsehoods that you can’t imagine anyone seeing through yours. You didn’t offer anything worthwhile in fulfilled prophecies.
quote:
I am a little embarrassed to ask either of you which state
my wife and I will be visiting next month, because I know
that noth of you will get it right.
But we don’t have to get it right to match your fulfilled prophecies. We can pretend we did and make up stories after the fact to explain how you really went to whichever state we chose. Would you find that amazing? Or do you expect us to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Candle3, posted 04-06-2024 4:39 PM Candle3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18056
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 512 of 537 (917453)
04-08-2024 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by Candle3
04-08-2024 9:16 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
quote:
I get a chuckle when reading Paulk's reply concerning
the fulfillment of these predictions.
Which says almost all we need to know. You can’t offer any serious defense of your claims. You just laugh at the truth.
quote:
The guy has a deep hate for Jesus, and this hate alters
his cognitive reasoning. He hates Jesus because Satan
has painted an extreme negative image of Him.
And this silly fantasy says the rest.
Now how about you actually address the topic? Phat managed it. He even got it right. Which is more than you or ICANT have managed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Candle3, posted 04-08-2024 9:16 AM Candle3 has not replied

  
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