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Author | Topic: How certain is materialism/physicalism as a description of ultimate reality? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined:
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There are probably about 100 different philosophy positions that touch on what science would say about our physical world.
Specifically, the metaphysical world. Neuroscience is a pretty materialistic profession. It commonly will show that our memories are made up of biological matter. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hammer off have attempted to find a non materialistic interpretation of our brain and consciousness, but an underground (literally subterranean) experiment, in Italy, did not back up the physical description of the theory. LSD experiments are ongoing, and some physicists are always claiming to have made an LSD breakthrough, that challenges materialism. Generally, just about nothing has truly challenged materialism, successfully. UFOs - to the extent there has been "observations" by us, of them - seem to offer potential evidence that our physical laws need a better understanding, and some interpretations of UFOs involved interdimensional interpretations. (John Brennan or James Clapper said UFOs seem to be interdimensional) Materialism is the most relevant philosophy to a spiritual species, which humans seem to be.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Metaphysical is a hypothetical physical concept, as we all know.
Or should already know.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Still waiting for the ahem perfect rewording.
Don't cheat us all out of the perfect rewording.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
This would be a good place to discuss metaphysical-related events, like miracles and the supernatural.
Better than a historical Jesus thread, and there are a lot of those around here. And they are full of posters who don't have a fucking clue. I almost laughed (And as a character technique, I never physically laugh at other people's views) when I read the first few posts in a historical Jesus thread started by ICANT. Look at the starting lineup... Post 1 ICANT POST 2 Percy (promoted thread) Post 3 Tanpteryx Post 4. Tangle It was a parade of stupidity and I never saw such an ignoramus-display, even here, in my entire life. I almost laughed, and post five (PaulK) was the first post that started to display some semblance of understanding about the confused b.s.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I will use the historical Jesus issue to offer a dichotomy.
I mentioned that I read a book, awhile (kinda far) back, on the historical Jesus, which I liked a bit more than the rest. It was a book by Dale Allison. It is titled Jesus of Nazareth Millenarian Prophet(I struggle to remember many details) I liked his views on the views of what type of Jew Jesus was, though surely not in all details. Allison feels the Sermon on The Mount was written after 70 CE, and people here would say, "They made it up". Richard Carrier likes Allison. I just found that out days ago. Liberal Christian theology and historical scholarship tends to find the Sermon on the Mount to be historical (it is always complicated, though). Secular historians write articles (and any "historical" book is actually divided into ARTICLES, the presentation is not as unified & sweeping as traders might assume), in historical studies, granting the historicity of the Sermon On The Mount. I read the Allison history book, without knowing or caring about his religion or any details. It turns out he is (per my Google search, days ago) a Christian who wrote a book defending the resurrection. EvC is packed with posters who are - veritable - uncritically minded, the unscientific mindset is the reason for being totally clueless about history and the nature of scientific studies. I also make mistakes, but they are perhaps due to an over compartmentalization, I dunno? NOW A SUPER DIRECT ANSWER Miracles and creation and the supernatural are part of the metaphysical sphere of debate. They just are.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
That would be related to "soul" & "spirit"-intellect issues.
Continuity of consciousness after biological death, type issues. Sometimes, I have seen a scientific issue describing a " 'hard problem' of consciousness" I did not say I was discussing anything, however.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Why does it need to be me?
I will just answer that I don't know. I will link to a study. From 2022 I have two books by Riger Penrose from around 35 years ago. The Emperor's New Clothes and a followup. There was just a big study, and it tested the metaphysical with the physical
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
That is the first point.
THAT WAS the first point. That still is. People seem to want to quibble about what exactly we are discussing. Fine. Here is another quibble point: I remembered Chris Matthews objected to Rick Warren asking Senator Obama when live begins. Matthews said it was a "metaphysical" question, and it has no place in a Presidential candidate interview. But, there is a way to put science to the "metaphysical": Fetal viability at 23 weeks was around 4.5 percent, if I understood a 2003 journal article I just saw on a routine Google search. But, in a 2023 University of Rochester Medical report shows modern technology now has a 535/958 (55.8 percent) fetal viability rate, for 23 week pre-mature fetuses. So, is this a metaphysical example simply a bad metaphor, via a political pundit, or is this a "viable" example of metaphysics meeting science. Ironically(?): Roe V Wade had a constitutional protection at 24 weeks. But the 1992 Casey decision allowed for earlier bans, based on viability evidence I
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Alot of people feel they were pre-existing, prior to birth.
I have known people (or, specifically, a person)who had night dreams of living their spirit lives in earth, as a watcher-spirit, and talking to fellow spirits about how he looked forward to the day he got to become a living animal - via a future human birth. Chris Matthews was indeed on the right track, when he saw the Saddleback 2008 interview as crossing over into metaphysical territory. I figured that you would respond by saying twenty-three week-old fetuses are too late in the pregnancy to be truly considered part of the metaphysical debate. (I actually was thinking of the issue, because I was wondering if Jimmy Carter could have been born as late as early June 2024 - thus prematurely, and still be healthy enough to make it to June 2024. I was wondering if our life measurements as starting at birth should be seen as 100.0 percent the correct measure. I was wondering what the odds are of the former President reaching 100. Then I thought of this thread.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined:
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My post won't scroll when editing. On my phone.
I was wondering if Carter could have been conceived at the same time, in 1924, but born prematurely, and then still survived infancy plus been healthy enough to reach 99/100. I was thinking he might come close to reaching 100 (but not quite), by our reconing, but still come close enough - in months/weeks - that could be within the bounds of survivability in a premature birth.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
It might be that my phone is about to die due to moisture corrosion.
I cant tap on my text box and get it to scroll, during the initial post and editing. If my post is too long, then I cant change it. (I had this problem earlier as my phone spell check turned READERs into "traders", and I did not catch it when I read it. While we are there: (My point about history books was that items are taken on an article by article basis, even if a work has an author who has a grand theme he wants to get across) (Richard Carrier feels that a historian uniquely has vital skills via a special training, and he has strong views which demand we recognize archaeologists and theologians as simply lacking in the qualifications to produce a sound historical study ) (That was what initially caused the issue to be on my mind, and you were the reason Percy. I had a slightly larger point here though)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
But a single bacterion is part of the metaphysical debate.
Does every life have a conscience experience and did it come from an intellect which can be described as a "spiritual" existence? Where do the minds go when biological death occurs. Every issue touching on life & death will fall squarely into a "spiritual" sphere if you feel your philosophical leanings are so concerned. And, absent some unknown physical law at play, it will also be solidly in the METAPHYSICAL realm. The fact that scientific consensus (via observations)will place the philosophy very much outside of "science" does not overthrow the point. It, in actuality, makes the point.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I was talking about the HARD PROBLEM OF CONSCIOUSNESS
That was what I thought I was fundamentally talking, about
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia
That came first. Penrose used his non-deterministic, non local, wave function collapse (albeit not Copenhagen, but an idiosyncratic theory) theory to reach his scientific hypothesis on the Hard Problem Of Consciousness. Non-determinism is the mainstream in QM. Determinism is the minority view. Philosophy came first. The scientific hypothesis came second. I am having computer problems (I could not get the wikipedia page to load), but I will show the 2022 study when I can load pages and paste. The scientific test came much later than Penrose & Hammeroff's theory. (they were interviewed favorably - decades ago - by the Guru you mentioned, but the Guru never had a quantum mechanical theory himself, as a YouTube interview with Richard Dawkins demonstrated.) Aside from tackling a very important philosophical concept, Penrose' scientific theory had the noteworthy feature of using a Quantum Theory of Gravity. So, it was a really big deal.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
Actually you were correct earlier, in that the Penrose-Hammeroff theory is Deterministic. So, it is non-local and deterministic. He does describe his cyclic cosmology as deterministic, but I guess I forgot to connect the dots. All of his views are pretty odd, frankly.
quote: The non-local wave function collapse was falsified at the scale tested (smaller scales coul be tested, however) The neuroscience is a different story, but it has no implications for the wave function collapse issue and non locality evidence. Firtina, Nergis (20 October 2022). "Our brains could use quantum computation – here's how". interestingengineering.com. Retrieved 17 November 2022.Kerskens, Christian Matthias; López Pérez, David (1 October 2022). "Experimental indications of non-classical brain functions". Journal of Physics Communications. 6 (10): 105001. arXiv:1806.07998. Bibcode:2022JPhCo...6j5001K. doi:10.1088/2399-6528/ac94be. ISSN 2399-6528. The neuroscience first:
quote: Now the Quantum Mechanics wave function issue, which does not measure up to the theories claims.
quote: https://www.sciencedirect.com/...e/abs/pii/S1571064522000197 I only quoted a tiny amount of both journals So the Neuroscience does challenge conventional theories about consciousness. Per first journal. But The Penrose Wave Function Collapse and non locality were completely not backed up by the results. Per second journal
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