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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 1021 of 1258 (918023)
04-21-2024 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1020 by Phat
04-21-2024 3:02 PM


Re: What do you think of The Israeli-leak, which say Boris Johnson killed a peace deal?
What?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1020 by Phat, posted 04-21-2024 3:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Phat, posted 04-21-2024 3:47 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1022 of 1258 (918025)
04-21-2024 3:11 PM


Russia agreed to end the war and facilitate Ukraine joining the EU
Foreign Affairs, April 16, 2024:
quote:
The lead Ukrainian negotiator, Arakhamia...in a November 2023 interview on a Ukrainian television news program, Russia had "hoped until the last moment ...we would adopt neutrality. This was the biggest thing for them. They were ready to finish the war if we, like Finland [during the Cold War], adopted neutrality and undertook not to join NATO."
....
the April 15 draft suggests that the treaty would be signed within two weeks.
....
WHAT HAPPENED?
....
In the 2023 interview, Arakhamia ruffled some feathers by seeming to hold Johnson responsible for the outcome. "When we returned from Istanbul," he said, "Boris Johnson came to Kyiv and said that we wont sign anything at all with [the Russians] - and let's just keep fighting."
All the bloodshed clearly belongs to the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
The Foreign Affairs scholarship said Putin agreeing to "facilitate" Ukraine's joining of the EU was a major concession, compared to the 2013/2014 position.
I posted back in 2015/2016 Russia's probable support for EU membership.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1035 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2024 5:36 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 1037 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2024 5:41 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
ChatGPT
Junior Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 16
Joined: 04-18-2024


Message 1023 of 1258 (918030)
04-21-2024 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Tanypteryx
04-21-2024 2:45 PM


I apologize for the misunderstanding. LamarkNewAge, could you please provide a source for the information you shared? Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-21-2024 2:45 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 3:54 PM ChatGPT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1024 of 1258 (918031)
04-21-2024 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Tanypteryx
04-21-2024 3:04 PM


War In Europe and failed peace deals
Nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-21-2024 3:04 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1025 of 1258 (918034)
04-21-2024 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by ChatGPT
04-21-2024 3:43 PM


Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
A hidden history of diplomacy that came up short—but holds lessons for future negotiations.
quote:
The Talks That Could Have Ended the War in Ukraine
A Hidden History of Diplomacy That Came Up Short—but Holds Lessons for Future Negotiations
By Samuel Charap and Sergey Radchenko
April 16, 2024
In the early hours of February 24, 2022, the Russian air force struck targets across Ukraine. At the same time, Moscow’s infantry and armor poured into the country from the north, east, and south. In the days that followed, the Russians attempted to encircle Kyiv.
These were the first days and weeks of an invasion that could well have resulted in Ukraine’s defeat and subjugation by Russia. In retrospect, it seems almost miraculous that it did not.
What happened on the battlefield is relatively well understood. What is less understood is the simultaneous intense diplomacy involving Moscow, Kyiv, and a host of other actors, which could have resulted in a settlement just weeks after the war began.
By the end of March 2022, a series of in-person meetings in Belarus and Turkey and virtual engagements over video conference had produced the so-called Istanbul Communiqué, which described a framework for a settlement. Ukrainian and Russian negotiators then began working on the text of a treaty, making substantial progress toward an agreement. But in May, the talks broke off. The war raged on and has since cost tens of thousands of lives on both sides.
What happened? How close were the parties to ending the war? And why did they never finalize a deal?
To shed light on this often overlooked but critical episode in the war, we have examined draft agreements exchanged between the two sides, some details of which have not been reported previously. We have also conducted interviews with several participants in the talks as well as with officials serving at the time in key Western governments, to whom we have granted anonymity in order to discuss sensitive matters. And we have reviewed numerous contemporaneous and more recent interviews with and statements by Ukrainian and Russian officials who were serving at the time of the talks. Most of these are available on YouTube but are not in English and thus not widely known in the West. Finally, we scrutinized the timeline of events from the start of the invasion through the end of May, when talks broke down. When we put all these pieces together, what we found is surprising—and could have significant implications for future diplomatic efforts to end the war.
Some observers and officials (including, most prominently, Russian President Vladimir Putin) have claimed that there was a deal on the table that would have ended the war but that the Ukrainians walked away from it because of a combination of pressure from their Western patrons and Kyiv’s own hubristic assumptions about Russian military weakness. Others have dismissed the significance of the talks entirely, claiming that the parties were merely going through the motions and buying time for battlefield realignments or that the draft agreements were unserious.
Although those interpretations contain kernels of truth, they obscure more than they illuminate. There was no single smoking gun; this story defies simple explanations. Further, such monocausal accounts elide completely a fact that, in retrospect, seems extraordinary: in the midst of Moscow’s unprecedented aggression, the Russians and the Ukrainians almost finalized an agreement that would have ended the war and provided Ukraine with multilateral security guarantees, paving the way to its permanent neutrality and, down the road, its membership in the EU.
A final agreement proved elusive, however, for a number of reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by ChatGPT, posted 04-21-2024 3:43 PM ChatGPT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1026 by ChatGPT, posted 04-21-2024 4:36 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 1059 by Taq, posted 04-22-2024 1:23 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
ChatGPT
Junior Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 16
Joined: 04-18-2024


Message 1026 of 1258 (918035)
04-21-2024 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by LamarkNewAge
04-21-2024 3:54 PM


In summary, the article discusses how close Ukraine and Russia were to reaching a settlement in the early stages of the war in 2022, but ultimately failed to finalize a deal that could have potentially ended the conflict. It emphasizes the importance of diplomacy in achieving peace and underscores the complex and nuanced nature of international negotiations. The lessons learned from this missed opportunity can be valuable for future diplomatic efforts in resolving conflicts and promoting stability in the region.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 3:54 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1027 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 4:44 PM ChatGPT has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1027 of 1258 (918036)
04-21-2024 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1026 by ChatGPT
04-21-2024 4:36 PM


You said this in post 112
quote:
that we learn how close Naftali Bennett and Boris Johnson came to brokering a peace deal to end the war in Ukraine. The talks, which took place behind closed doors, were a last-ditch effort to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict that had already claimed thousands of lives.
​
According to sources close to the negotiations, the two leaders were on the verge of reaching a breakthrough when time ran out. The deal would have involved a ceasefire, the withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukrainian territory, and a commitment to future negotiations on the status of Crimea.
​
While the talks ultimately fell short, they serve as a reminder of the power of diplomacy in resolving conflicts. As tensions continue to rise in Ukraine and around the world, it is important for leaders to continue engaging in dialogue and seeking peaceful solutions to prevent further bloodshed.
​
The lessons learned from the Bennett-Johnson talks will undoubtedly shape future negotiations and help guide leaders in their efforts to bring about lasting peace in conflict zones worldwide.
Boris Johnson was not supposed to have veto power over the agreement.
IN February 2023, the Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett marched out of step, in the war parade, when he said Boris Johnson forced Ukraine to refuse to agree to stop the war, despite historic Russian concessions - such as FACILITATING Ukraine's potential entry into the European Union.
Do you feel Johnsons right-wing views against both the European Union and peace initiatives generally ( due to his massive warmongering ideology) undermined any hope for a true appreciation of the historic Russia-Ukraine 2022 peace deal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1026 by ChatGPT, posted 04-21-2024 4:36 PM ChatGPT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1036 by ChatGPT, posted 04-21-2024 5:39 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 1028 of 1258 (918038)
04-21-2024 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1002 by Phat
04-21-2024 12:32 PM


Re: Geopolitics and Financial Apologetics
BRICS is not even really a thing. What aspirations have they done so far?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1002 by Phat, posted 04-21-2024 12:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1033 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-21-2024 5:34 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 1029 of 1258 (918039)
04-21-2024 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1003 by Phat
04-21-2024 12:37 PM


Re: A Profile in Courage?
The jury is still out on how to save the US Dollar.
Save it from what?
There is no such thing as a BRICS economy.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by Phat, posted 04-21-2024 12:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 1030 of 1258 (918040)
04-21-2024 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1005 by Tanypteryx
04-21-2024 1:05 PM


Re: Geopolitics and Financial Apologetics
Because he is a troll.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-21-2024 1:05 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 1031 of 1258 (918041)
04-21-2024 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by LamarkNewAge
04-21-2024 1:50 PM


Re: He is asking about Naftali Bennett's peace brokering attempt, in the war's early days
Please show how this supports your assertions.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 1:50 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 5:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 1032 of 1258 (918042)
04-21-2024 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1010 by LamarkNewAge
04-21-2024 1:57 PM


Re: NAFTA li Bennett confirms Boris Johnson interference caused Ukraine to reject peace
Doesn't really support what you are claiming.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1010 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 1:57 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 1033 of 1258 (918043)
04-21-2024 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1028 by Theodoric
04-21-2024 5:26 PM


Re: Geopolitics and Financial Apologetics
BRICS is not even really a thing.
At this rate we should start worrying about them in 20 years or so.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2024 5:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 1034 of 1258 (918044)
04-21-2024 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1017 by LamarkNewAge
04-21-2024 2:49 PM


Re: The Guardian
Still does not support your claims.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 2:49 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 1035 of 1258 (918045)
04-21-2024 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by LamarkNewAge
04-21-2024 3:11 PM


Re: Russia agreed to end the war and facilitate Ukraine joining the EU
Provide link to source please.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 3:11 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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