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Author Topic:   The disconnect between the bible, and its horrific actions versus the message
Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 12 of 63 (919391)
07-08-2024 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Zucadragon
07-06-2024 11:01 PM


This Stuff Makes No Sense
Zucadragon writes:
I could kinda understand it if it's humanity's wickedness that causes its own downfall, that we reached to high like Icarus flying towards the sun, and that all comes crashing down. But it's not that, God decided humanity was wicked, and so all get killed. What is the point here?
The way that I was taught it *is* humanity's wickedness. The so-called chosen people were human also and thus not perfect...any more than are today's "Christians" or any other group of people. Assuming then that *all* humanity is potentially bad, The stories first have God vowing to wipe out the humanity that He created in the flood
mythos...except for a remnant(one family) that He had chosen. So then it later goes from one family to one nation (Israel).
The fact that God "blesses" Israel is not indicative of either their holiness or their wickedness. In my mind, God (as Creator) has every right to "bless" one person or everyone and is under no human moral judgment to be equal or fair about it as today's whiners seem to think would be "fair".
The imperative is for humans to strive to be Holy rather than for God to be fair. Some apologists believe that surrender to Jesus empowers us to be Holy but at that point, we still have free will(in practice) and thus are judged by our own freedom. Atheists are under no more of a "death sentence" than are Christians or any other group.
We become the decisions that *we*make... daily. And not everybody has a repentant heart or soul. Some of us think that we are in charge at all times.
Which we are. This supports the contrarian assertion that we are what we do, not who we profess to be (as a special or chosen group, individual or nation).

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 13 of 63 (919392)
07-08-2024 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Zucadragon
07-07-2024 8:54 AM


Hypothetical God/Human Scenarios
Zuca writes:
How could you feel good in heaven, knowing that the ones you love, the ones you care about, are suffering eternally? I know I wouldn't be able to feel good in such a situation
Good point, which brings to mind the idea of (assuming there is a judge)
human individual choices as being reflective of their families' fate or their nation's fate.
This would be relevant with or without GOD as an Omnipotent Judge.
The issue is Responsibility. Perhaps if we shirk ours, we in effect have judged ourselves by our actions.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 14 of 63 (919393)
07-08-2024 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
07-07-2024 5:26 AM


AZ Antitheist 3
AZ writes:
The point is the afterlife. The point is to be qualified for communion with god.
Now you know better than that.
The point is our behavior is this life. IF GOD exists, it would be folly to fight Him in the afterlife. We could follow your example and simply ignore all "gods".
I would imagine that IF God exists, He would not simply banish the likes of you to hell for ignoring Him, but He likely would make you aware that His existence was not solely a product of your own mind.
And if it turns out that you were right, it wouldn't matter anyway...except for the idea of who or what we would commune with or reject in the afterlife.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 16 of 63 (919416)
07-10-2024 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
07-07-2024 9:03 AM


Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
My liberal Christian friend in Minnesota sent me this post about Jim Palmer and told me a bit of his story.
[ Very long quoted content that is available as a link has been hidden. It was available at so many places it was difficult choosing one.
Link to Phat's quoted content: Is Religion a Rational Way to Seek Truth?
--Admin ]

He shares a lot of views that you have tried to teach me (in vain) over the past 20 years.
I don't disagree with all of what he says any more than I do you, but I have some reservations.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 23 of 63 (919430)
07-10-2024 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
07-10-2024 4:23 PM


The Threat Of Ignorance Haunts Elitists
And when the reset happens and everything crashes just as Carlson, Glen Beck, and others have mentioned, you will blame a whole political party and ideology for upsetting the Apple cart when it was the progressives who wanted to push war in Ukraine to fund the military-industrial complex. It was the progressives who weaponized the dollar and arrogantly threatened the most populous nation on earth (China) The world is slowly beginning to de-dollarize, but you see it slowly happening if at all. One day reality will hit you. All that you can even really complain about is the Bush/Trump tax cuts. Even then, you don't have any explanation as to why the Debt(not deficit) is increasing by 4 trillion dollars a year. You are, however, in denial. It is easy to blame the CCoI. Perhaps we should examine how effective each candidate really was in their terms and what they had to face.
Im no fan of Trump, but if the senile old man tries to run again he will be thoroughly trounced. And though the progressives are ready for the women, the conservatives would go with the Felon.

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 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 4:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 24 of 63 (919431)
07-10-2024 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Theodoric
07-10-2024 1:18 PM


Re: Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
Theo writes:
Or he can crawl back under his rock.
Or better yet he can watch his diet, stand firmly on the Rock Of Ages, and watch the elitists who favor digital currencies and bitcoin lose a financial war with the East and suffer the responsibility of paying the bill while gnashing their teeth at the wealthy who skate off with the money once again.
It's easy to blame Trump but its harder to realize that you need intelligent candidates rather than simply progressive figureheads.
Experts get paid. Amateurs Take Risks and study markets.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 27 of 63 (919434)
07-10-2024 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
07-10-2024 4:58 PM


Similar Yet Different
nwr writes:
The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
From what I read, though there were obvious similarities, the spiritual outcomes and portrayals were quite different.
FROM: What the Babylonian Flood Stories Can and Cannot Teach Us About the Genesis Flood .
It is not easy to compare the flood story in Genesis with that in the Gilgamesh Epic because they are told for different reasons and from different perspectives. In the Gilgamesh Epic the story of the flood is related as part of the tale of Gilgamesh’s quest for immortality. Utnapishtim tells his descendent, Gilgamesh, the story of the flood in order to tell Gilgamesh how he, Utnapishtim, became immortal; in so doing, he shows Gilgamesh that he cannot become immortal in the same way. (...)He relates how the god Ea instructed him to build an ark and to take on it the seed of all living things. Utnapishtim did so, informing the elders of his city that Enlil was angry with him, that he could no longer reside in the city and that he was going down to the deep to live with Ea. When the flood arrived Utnapishtim boarded the ship and battened it down. The deluge then brought such massive destruction that even the gods were frightened by it.
In the Genesis story,
One God (evidently the character in charge) commands the one family in which He saw hope to build the Ark and preserve the species. God was no more wicked than you or I...He foreknew that the other humans were reprobates beyond hope. As for the animals, one could say collateral damage.
Note also...
Although Enlil was at first still angry that his plan to destroy mankind had been thwarted, the rest of the gods were grateful that man had been saved, and Enlil thereupon rewarded Utnapishtim and his wife by making them like gods, giving them eternal life.
In the Genesis stories, Humans were not ready for eternal life until they had learned more about God than they *knew* or felt about the serpents. The earlier mythos was more pantheistic yet oddly enough more human and thus plausible.
I do think about where the characters are coming from and how strong their beliefs (and actions) are. I don't believe that every God mentioned in literature is simply invented by humans. however. I was earlier going to compare what Jim Palmer has stated to my own beliefs.
I agree with Palmer that religion can be toxic and uses fear as a recruiting tactic.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 28 of 63 (919435)
07-10-2024 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
07-10-2024 5:03 PM


Re: The Threat Of Willful Ignorance Haunts Elitists
The threat is surely more than just religious beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 5:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 33 of 63 (919443)
07-11-2024 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by DrJones*
07-10-2024 8:43 PM


No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Dr.Strangelove writes:
God said "fuck this, kill 'em all and let me sort it out afterward" he gave up on everybody but Noah's family.
No. All of the people gave up on themselves and the idea of God and spread nothing but war, greed, and envy. They became the decisions that they freely made. So did Noah's family.
This whole idea of outrage towards a hypothetical "God character is so misguided.
We become the decisions that we make and will reap what we sow. No Creator owes you anything. Grow up.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 41 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-11-2024 12:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 49 of 63 (919494)
07-12-2024 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tanypteryx
07-11-2024 12:55 PM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Tany writes:
and the god of the bible is a bloody monstrous tyrant who claims to love us.
The God of the Bible is fulfilled in the character of Jesus Christ. Is Jesus a tyrant? Does He infringe on your precious freedom in any way?
Jesus owes no one anything except what He taught us to do.
You elitists are so damn literal that you try and extrapolate a character out of the book as if everything in the book were made up. Which, if true, only puts you back in the group that thinks that no gods exist and that the whole book was made up!
Now I suppose you will want more evidence.
The Apostle to the atheists, our very own jar, suggests we all throw our preconceptions of God away and do what Jesus taught, expecting nothing and giving everything. Which is about the only teaching he has proposed that has no flaws or hidden motives...apart from this whole lame progressive idea that we have a mandate to lead the planet and be a people of common good. The point that is missing is whether we are capable of doing it.
Get ready, Elitists. That antichrist Trump will probably win this election and you will have people to blame, like anyone who is a believer who refuses to throw Jesus away. But your opinions and beliefs are as irrelevant to me as mine are to you.
None of you will ever believe what I say or take me seriously. And you wonder in awe why I don't respect your biased education. All I can say is stay tuned. We all will have to face the future together, but one thing I know is that the people will never have the power to get the rich to pay their fair share nor will you ever fully weaponize the justice system or the US Dollar. You might see that I knew what I was talking about in a year or two.
Either way, I will never see eye to eye with most of you; in your mind, its my fault.
I will be in the hospital for a few days so I hope to be back in a week with few complications.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 53 of 63 (919500)
07-13-2024 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Percy
07-12-2024 9:07 PM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
My Doc thought I had an infection plus he wanted to operate on a toe but there was no infection and I'm back home now. *Whew!*

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18694
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 56 of 63 (920116)
09-01-2024 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
07-10-2024 6:35 PM


Re: The Threat Of Willful Ignorance Haunts Elitists
jar writes:
The threat is your Willful Ignorance that was brainwashed into you by the CCoI.
Too funny.
How do I know that what you were taught is not itself cultural indoctrination? It sure seems to me that you were taught basically to not believe anything and to question everything not supported by (human-derived) facts and data.
But you and I have been down this trail a brazillion times.
Phat: Jesus died for my sins and has a plan to rescue humanity from collective willful ignorance.
jar: Only the Christian Culture Of Ignorance is willfully ignorant. The rest of us are critically thinking skeptics and academicians more in touch with reality rather than fantasy.
Phat: You are hopeless. Since you threw satan away along with God and Jesus, I cant explain why.
jar: You and the CCoI are the greatest threat to world peace and stability that currently exists.
Or are you going to complain that I misrepresented you yet again??!!
You love to frame every issue in your own words. I do the same thing!

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