|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The disconnect between the bible, and its horrific actions versus the message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
My liberal Christian friend in Minnesota sent me this post about Jim Palmer and told me a bit of his story.
[ Very long quoted content that is available as a link has been hidden. It was available at so many places it was difficult choosing one. Link to Phat's quoted content: Is Religion a Rational Way to Seek Truth? --Admin ]Jim Palmer writes:
As you know, I once was an evangelical megachurch pastor and my pastoral career stretched over many years. Eventually, I could no longer teach Christian doctrine with a good conscience and realized this teaching was not truly changing people’s lives… and so I walked away from the whole enchilada.Below are 14 things that the misguided religious establishment doesn't want you to know. Speaking for myself and my personal experience, I was not able to see or admit these things to myself. I truly got into ministry initially because I wanted to make a difference and help people, and I relied upon the belief-system I learned as the proper framework to achieve this. It took a lot of post-religion reflection to see the ways this belief-system was hurting people. I offer the below list in hopes that you might disentangle yourself from harmful beliefs and attitudes impacting your life. 14 things the misguided religious establishment doesn’t want you to know: 1. Toxic religion is rooted in fear, especially fear about the afterlife. It leverages the false doctrine of hell to win converts and demand holiness. The fear of God's disapproval, rejection, abandonment and punishment is another hallmark of toxic religion. 2. Clergy have no innate authority. Holding a church leadership position or having a theological degree does not imbue a person with special divine authority or superiority. The terms "anointed", "called", or "chosen" or titles such as "pastor", "priest", "bishop", "elder", "evangelist" or "apostle" do not confer any innate authority on an individual or group. 3. We hold sacred what we are taught to hold sacred, which is why what is sacred to one community is not sacred to another. 4. The stories in our sacred books aren’t history, nor were they meant to be. The authors of these books weren’t historians but writers of historical fiction: they used history (or pseudo history) as a context or pretext for their own ideas. Reading sacred texts as history may yield some nuggets of the past, but the real gold is in seeing these stories as myth and parable, and trying to unpack the possible meanings these parables and myths may hold. 5. Prayer doesn’t work the way you think it does. You can’t bribe God, or change God’s mind through obedience, devotion, or groveling. The underlying theistic premises of prayer are untenable. 6. Anything you claim to know about God, even the notion that there is a God, is a projection of your psyche. What you say about God—who God is, what God cares about, who God rewards, and who God punishes—says nothing about God and everything about you. If you believe in an unconditionally loving God, you probably value unconditional love. If you believe in a God who divides people into chosen and not chosen, believers and infidels, saved and damned, high cast or low caste, etc. you are likely someone who divides people into in–groups and out–groups with you and your group as the quintessential in-group. God may or may not exist, but your idea of God mirrors yourself and your values. 7. Our species has no religion. People are born human and are slowly conditioned by narratives of race, religion, gender, nationality, etc. to be less than human. 8. Theology isn’t the free search for truth, but rather a defense of an already held position. Theology is really apologetics, explaining why a belief is true rather than seeking out the truth in and of itself. All theological reasoning is circular, inevitably “proving” the truth of its own presupposition. 9. Becoming more religious cannot save us. Religion is a human invention reflecting the best and worst of humanity; becoming more religious will simply allow us to perpetuate compassion and cruelty in the name of religion. Because religion always carries the danger of fanaticism, becoming more religious may only heighten the risk of us becoming more fanatical. 10. Becoming less religious cannot save us. In fact, being against religion can become it’s own fanaticism. Becoming less religious will simply force us to perpetuate compassion and cruelty in the name of something else. Secular societies that actively suppress religion have proven no more just or compassionate than religious societies that suppress secularism or free thought. This is because neither religion nor the lack of religion solely nullifies our human potential to act out of ego, greed, fear, hostility, and hatred. 11. A healthy religion is one that helps us own and integrate the shadow side of human nature for the good of person and planet, something few clergy are trained to do. Clergy are trained to promote the religion they represent. They are apologists not liberators. If you want to be more just, compassionate, and loving, you must do the personal work within yourself, and free yourself from the conditions that lock you into injustice, cruelty, and hate, and this means you have to free yourself from all your narratives, including those you call “religious.” 12. Religious leaders claims that their particular understanding and interpretation of their sacred books should be universally accepted. Religious leaders often say, “My authority is the Bible.” It would be more accurate for them to say, “My authority is what they taught me at seminary the Bible means.” People start with flawed or false presuppositions about what the Bible is, such as: the Bible was meant to present a coherent theology about God or is a piece of doctrinal exposition; the Bible is the inerrant, infallible and sole message/"Word" of God to the world; the Bible is a blueprint for daily living. Too often religious leaders make God about having "correct theology." There are a lot of unhappy, broken, hurting, suffering, depressed, lonely people in church with church-approved theology. 13. If your livelihood depends on the success of your church as an organization, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you will mostly define and reward Christianity as participation in church structures and programs. Christian living is mostly a decentralized reality or way of life, not a centralized or program-dependent phenomenon. Church attendance, tithing, membership, service, and devoted participation, become the hallmarks of Christian maturity. 14. You are capable of guiding your own spiritual path from the inside out and don't need to be told what to do. You naturally have the ability, capacity, tools and skills to guide and direct your life meaningfully, ethically and effectively. Through the use of your fundamental human faculties such as critical thinking, empathy, reason, conscience and intuition, you can capably lead your life. You have the choice to cultivate a spirituality that doesn’t require you to be inadequate, powerless, weak, and lacking, but one that empowers you toward strength, vitality, wholeness, and the fulfillment of your highest potentialities and possibilities. He shares a lot of views that you have tried to teach me (in vain) over the past 20 years. I don't disagree with all of what he says any more than I do you, but I have some reservations. Edited by Admin, : Replace long quoted content with a link.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6484 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 8.6
|
I'll mostly say that I like the way Admin has edited your message. It greatly improves it.
I don't have an serious disagreement with Jim Palmer.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Now it's time to stop believing and trusting just what you want to believe and who you trust.
Throw the God & Jesus you've been sold away and actually look at what is written.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
Or he can crawl back under his rock.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Percy writes: I was raised Unitarian. I never believed the Bible stories were real, but I did believe they characterized the God of Christianity, that the stories were intended to send a message. The OT does not paint a pretty picture, and the NT interpretation where no one who hasn't accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior can go to heaven, even if they've never heard of him, seems just as severe as the OT, minus the slaughter and genocide and salt pillars and all that. Firstly I would say that the message that we should take from the Noah story that no matter how bad things get, God doesn't give up on us. The flood story IMHO is a legend that grew up within various cultures around some local flood centuries ago. I strongly disagree with your take on the NT. Firstly it isn't about going to heaven at all but about heaven coming to earth, or more pointedly, the renewal of all things in this world. We are only given a very broad image of what would be like, with things like no suffering and not being stuck with one dimension in time doing away with entropy. Most of the things that are taken of people going to hell after death are not about that at all. Jesus was a revolutionist but a non-violent one. His message is that if you keep up with pushing for violent revolution there will a disastrous end and then uses OT hyperbolic imagery to emphasize His message, which would be hell on earth. He even predicted what eventually happened in the war starting in 66 AD roughly 30 years later. In Canada Trudeau is our Prime Minister. Yes i believe he is, but I don't believe in him. Jesus' message is consistent with my signature. His call is about self ging love. That is what constitutes believing in Jesus. Essentially it's about the heart. What matters isn't what we believe or what we do, but about how we love. We can follow that command whether we are Christian, Islamic, atheist or even Unitarian. As far as judgement is concerned I don't really concern myself with it as I believe in a God that is consistent with what God asks with us in my signature.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
What is it that Jar would call this? Word salad?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Correct but remember I'm just a lower case jar.
And anyone who has any faith & trust in Tucker Carlson can only be pitied and feared. The CCoI is the single biggest threat the US faces. I may have said that here at Ev over the decades but today the evidence is overwhelming.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
And when the reset happens and everything crashes just as Carlson, Glen Beck, and others have mentioned, you will blame a whole political party and ideology for upsetting the Apple cart when it was the progressives who wanted to push war in Ukraine to fund the military-industrial complex. It was the progressives who weaponized the dollar and arrogantly threatened the most populous nation on earth (China) The world is slowly beginning to de-dollarize, but you see it slowly happening if at all. One day reality will hit you. All that you can even really complain about is the Bush/Trump tax cuts. Even then, you don't have any explanation as to why the Debt(not deficit) is increasing by 4 trillion dollars a year. You are, however, in denial. It is easy to blame the CCoI. Perhaps we should examine how effective each candidate really was in their terms and what they had to face.
Im no fan of Trump, but if the senile old man tries to run again he will be thoroughly trounced. And though the progressives are ready for the women, the conservatives would go with the Felon.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Theo writes: Or better yet he can watch his diet, stand firmly on the Rock Of Ages, and watch the elitists who favor digital currencies and bitcoin lose a financial war with the East and suffer the responsibility of paying the bill while gnashing their teeth at the wealthy who skate off with the money once again. Or he can crawl back under his rock. It's easy to blame Trump but its harder to realize that you need intelligent candidates rather than simply progressive figureheads. Experts get paid. Amateurs Take Risks and study markets.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10296 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
|
GDR writes: Firstly I would say that the message that we should take from the Noah story that no matter how bad things get, God doesn't give up on us. Really? God wipes out billions of people, and from this you get the impression that God won't ever give up on people?
The flood story IMHO is a legend that grew up within various cultures around some local flood centuries ago. The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story in the Epic of Gilgamesh has an ark with family and animals, birds finding a branch after the flood, and a rainbow after the flood. The Noah story appears to be a retelling of a known story in a Jewish context with undertones of cultural appropriation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No, I will continue as I have for two decades here now and blame the Christian Cult of Ignorance and the utter and complete stupidity of folk like you who have failed to learn how to think.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
nwr writes: From what I read, though there were obvious similarities, the spiritual outcomes and portrayals were quite different. The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh.FROM: What the Babylonian Flood Stories Can and Cannot Teach Us About the Genesis Flood . It is not easy to compare the flood story in Genesis with that in the Gilgamesh Epic because they are told for different reasons and from different perspectives. In the Gilgamesh Epic the story of the flood is related as part of the tale of Gilgamesh’s quest for immortality. Utnapishtim tells his descendent, Gilgamesh, the story of the flood in order to tell Gilgamesh how he, Utnapishtim, became immortal; in so doing, he shows Gilgamesh that he cannot become immortal in the same way. (...)He relates how the god Ea instructed him to build an ark and to take on it the seed of all living things. Utnapishtim did so, informing the elders of his city that Enlil was angry with him, that he could no longer reside in the city and that he was going down to the deep to live with Ea. When the flood arrived Utnapishtim boarded the ship and battened it down. The deluge then brought such massive destruction that even the gods were frightened by it. In the Genesis story, One God (evidently the character in charge) commands the one family in which He saw hope to build the Ark and preserve the species. God was no more wicked than you or I...He foreknew that the other humans were reprobates beyond hope. As for the animals, one could say collateral damage. Note also... Although Enlil was at first still angry that his plan to destroy mankind had been thwarted, the rest of the gods were grateful that man had been saved, and Enlil thereupon rewarded Utnapishtim and his wife by making them like gods, giving them eternal life. In the Genesis stories, Humans were not ready for eternal life until they had learned more about God than they *knew* or felt about the serpents. The earlier mythos was more pantheistic yet oddly enough more human and thus plausible. I do think about where the characters are coming from and how strong their beliefs (and actions) are. I don't believe that every God mentioned in literature is simply invented by humans. however. I was earlier going to compare what Jim Palmer has stated to my own beliefs. I agree with Palmer that religion can be toxic and uses fear as a recruiting tactic.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
The threat is surely more than just religious beliefs.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Taq writes:
It's legendary mythology. God didn't wipe out anybody. The point is even if there is only one righteous person left God isn't giving up on us.
Really? God wipes out billions of people, and from this you get the impression that God won't ever give up on people?Taq writes:
I knew that the Noah story followed Gilgamesh but the name Utnapishtim sent me scurrying to Mr. Google. He was the Noah character in the Gilgamesh story. It's a bad day when you don't learn something./ The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story in the Epic of Gilgamesh has an ark with family and animals, birds finding a branch after the flood, and a rainbow after the flood. The Noah story appears to be a retelling of a known story in a Jewish context with undertones of cultural appropriation.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Learn to READ. It's a four letter word.
The threat is your Willful Ignorance that was brainwashed into you by the CCoI.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024