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Author Topic:   The disconnect between the bible, and its horrific actions versus the message
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 16 of 57 (919416)
07-10-2024 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
07-07-2024 9:03 AM


Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
My liberal Christian friend in Minnesota sent me this post about Jim Palmer and told me a bit of his story.
[ Very long quoted content that is available as a link has been hidden. It was available at so many places it was difficult choosing one.
Link to Phat's quoted content: Is Religion a Rational Way to Seek Truth?
--Admin ]

He shares a lot of views that you have tried to teach me (in vain) over the past 20 years.
I don't disagree with all of what he says any more than I do you, but I have some reservations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 07-07-2024 9:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 18 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 12:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 8.6


(3)
Message 17 of 57 (919420)
07-10-2024 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
07-10-2024 8:51 AM


Re: Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
I'll mostly say that I like the way Admin has edited your message. It greatly improves it.
I don't have an serious disagreement with Jim Palmer.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-10-2024 8:51 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 57 (919424)
07-10-2024 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
07-10-2024 8:51 AM


Re: Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
Now it's time to stop believing and trusting just what you want to believe and who you trust.
Throw the God & Jesus you've been sold away and actually look at what is written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-10-2024 8:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 19 of 57 (919425)
07-10-2024 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
07-10-2024 12:56 PM


Re: Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
Or he can crawl back under his rock.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


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Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 20 of 57 (919427)
07-10-2024 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
07-07-2024 6:44 AM


Percy writes:
I was raised Unitarian. I never believed the Bible stories were real, but I did believe they characterized the God of Christianity, that the stories were intended to send a message. The OT does not paint a pretty picture, and the NT interpretation where no one who hasn't accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior can go to heaven, even if they've never heard of him, seems just as severe as the OT, minus the slaughter and genocide and salt pillars and all that.
Firstly I would say that the message that we should take from the Noah story that no matter how bad things get, God doesn't give up on us. The flood story IMHO is a legend that grew up within various cultures around some local flood centuries ago.
I strongly disagree with your take on the NT. Firstly it isn't about going to heaven at all but about heaven coming to earth, or more pointedly, the renewal of all things in this world. We are only given a very broad image of what would be like, with things like no suffering and not being stuck with one dimension in time doing away with entropy.
Most of the things that are taken of people going to hell after death are not about that at all. Jesus was a revolutionist but a non-violent one. His message is that if you keep up with pushing for violent revolution there will a disastrous end and then uses OT hyperbolic imagery to emphasize His message, which would be hell on earth. He even predicted what eventually happened in the war starting in 66 AD roughly 30 years later.
In Canada Trudeau is our Prime Minister. Yes i believe he is, but I don't believe in him. Jesus' message is consistent with my signature. His call is about self ging love. That is what constitutes believing in Jesus. Essentially it's about the heart. What matters isn't what we believe or what we do, but about how we love. We can follow that command whether we are Christian, Islamic, atheist or even Unitarian.
As far as judgement is concerned I don't really concern myself with it as I believe in a God that is consistent with what God asks with us in my signature.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 07-07-2024 6:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 07-10-2024 3:11 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 07-10-2024 4:58 PM GDR has replied
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 Message 36 by Percy, posted 07-11-2024 9:39 AM GDR has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 21 of 57 (919428)
07-10-2024 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
07-10-2024 1:59 PM


What is it that Jar would call this? Word salad?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-10-2024 1:59 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 4:23 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 57 (919429)
07-10-2024 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Theodoric
07-10-2024 3:11 PM


Correct but remember I'm just a lower case jar.
And anyone who has any faith & trust in Tucker Carlson can only be pitied and feared.
The CCoI is the single biggest threat the US faces.
I may have said that here at Ev over the decades but today the evidence is overwhelming.

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 23 of 57 (919430)
07-10-2024 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
07-10-2024 4:23 PM


The Threat Of Ignorance Haunts Elitists
And when the reset happens and everything crashes just as Carlson, Glen Beck, and others have mentioned, you will blame a whole political party and ideology for upsetting the Apple cart when it was the progressives who wanted to push war in Ukraine to fund the military-industrial complex. It was the progressives who weaponized the dollar and arrogantly threatened the most populous nation on earth (China) The world is slowly beginning to de-dollarize, but you see it slowly happening if at all. One day reality will hit you. All that you can even really complain about is the Bush/Trump tax cuts. Even then, you don't have any explanation as to why the Debt(not deficit) is increasing by 4 trillion dollars a year. You are, however, in denial. It is easy to blame the CCoI. Perhaps we should examine how effective each candidate really was in their terms and what they had to face.
Im no fan of Trump, but if the senile old man tries to run again he will be thoroughly trounced. And though the progressives are ready for the women, the conservatives would go with the Felon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 4:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 5:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 24 of 57 (919431)
07-10-2024 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Theodoric
07-10-2024 1:18 PM


Re: Jim Palmer: Ex Megachurch evangelical
Theo writes:
Or he can crawl back under his rock.
Or better yet he can watch his diet, stand firmly on the Rock Of Ages, and watch the elitists who favor digital currencies and bitcoin lose a financial war with the East and suffer the responsibility of paying the bill while gnashing their teeth at the wealthy who skate off with the money once again.
It's easy to blame Trump but its harder to realize that you need intelligent candidates rather than simply progressive figureheads.
Experts get paid. Amateurs Take Risks and study markets.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


(1)
Message 25 of 57 (919432)
07-10-2024 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
07-10-2024 1:59 PM


GDR writes:
Firstly I would say that the message that we should take from the Noah story that no matter how bad things get, God doesn't give up on us.
Really? God wipes out billions of people, and from this you get the impression that God won't ever give up on people?
The flood story IMHO is a legend that grew up within various cultures around some local flood centuries ago.
The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story in the Epic of Gilgamesh has an ark with family and animals, birds finding a branch after the flood, and a rainbow after the flood. The Noah story appears to be a retelling of a known story in a Jewish context with undertones of cultural appropriation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-10-2024 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by GDR, posted 07-10-2024 6:35 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 57 (919433)
07-10-2024 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
07-10-2024 4:50 PM


The Threat Of Willful Ignorance Haunts Elitists
No, I will continue as I have for two decades here now and blame the Christian Cult of Ignorance and the utter and complete stupidity of folk like you who have failed to learn how to think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 07-10-2024 4:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-10-2024 6:30 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 27 of 57 (919434)
07-10-2024 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
07-10-2024 4:58 PM


Similar Yet Different
nwr writes:
The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
From what I read, though there were obvious similarities, the spiritual outcomes and portrayals were quite different.
FROM: What the Babylonian Flood Stories Can and Cannot Teach Us About the Genesis Flood .
It is not easy to compare the flood story in Genesis with that in the Gilgamesh Epic because they are told for different reasons and from different perspectives. In the Gilgamesh Epic the story of the flood is related as part of the tale of Gilgamesh’s quest for immortality. Utnapishtim tells his descendent, Gilgamesh, the story of the flood in order to tell Gilgamesh how he, Utnapishtim, became immortal; in so doing, he shows Gilgamesh that he cannot become immortal in the same way. (...)He relates how the god Ea instructed him to build an ark and to take on it the seed of all living things. Utnapishtim did so, informing the elders of his city that Enlil was angry with him, that he could no longer reside in the city and that he was going down to the deep to live with Ea. When the flood arrived Utnapishtim boarded the ship and battened it down. The deluge then brought such massive destruction that even the gods were frightened by it.
In the Genesis story,
One God (evidently the character in charge) commands the one family in which He saw hope to build the Ark and preserve the species. God was no more wicked than you or I...He foreknew that the other humans were reprobates beyond hope. As for the animals, one could say collateral damage.
Note also...
Although Enlil was at first still angry that his plan to destroy mankind had been thwarted, the rest of the gods were grateful that man had been saved, and Enlil thereupon rewarded Utnapishtim and his wife by making them like gods, giving them eternal life.
In the Genesis stories, Humans were not ready for eternal life until they had learned more about God than they *knew* or felt about the serpents. The earlier mythos was more pantheistic yet oddly enough more human and thus plausible.
I do think about where the characters are coming from and how strong their beliefs (and actions) are. I don't believe that every God mentioned in literature is simply invented by humans. however. I was earlier going to compare what Jim Palmer has stated to my own beliefs.
I agree with Palmer that religion can be toxic and uses fear as a recruiting tactic.

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 28 of 57 (919435)
07-10-2024 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
07-10-2024 5:03 PM


Re: The Threat Of Willful Ignorance Haunts Elitists
The threat is surely more than just religious beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 5:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 07-10-2024 6:35 PM Phat has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 29 of 57 (919436)
07-10-2024 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
07-10-2024 4:58 PM


Taq writes:
Really? God wipes out billions of people, and from this you get the impression that God won't ever give up on people?
It's legendary mythology. God didn't wipe out anybody. The point is even if there is only one righteous person left God isn't giving up on us.
Taq writes:
The Noah story is a rather obvious copy of the Utnapishtim flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story in the Epic of Gilgamesh has an ark with family and animals, birds finding a branch after the flood, and a rainbow after the flood. The Noah story appears to be a retelling of a known story in a Jewish context with undertones of cultural appropriation.
I knew that the Noah story followed Gilgamesh but the name Utnapishtim sent me scurrying to Mr. Google. He was the Noah character in the Gilgamesh story. It's a bad day when you don't learn something./

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 07-10-2024 4:58 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 57 (919437)
07-10-2024 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-10-2024 6:30 PM


Re: The Threat Of Willful Ignorance Haunts Elitists
Learn to READ. It's a four letter word.
The threat is your Willful Ignorance that was brainwashed into you by the CCoI.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-10-2024 6:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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