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Author | Topic: Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
Kleinman writes: None of Taq's references explain how drug resistance occurs and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation for a single selection pressure in the Kishony and Lenski experiments. All of them do. Read the papers you fucking moron.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Kleinman writes: Did they identify 203,000 retroviruses in these genomes? They weren't only trying to detect the presence of ERV's, and they were widespread amongst vertebrates.
What happens if a germ cell has more than one retrovirus active in the cell at a time? Apparently, nothing. There are koalas with over 50 recently inserted ERVs and they are having offspring without a hitch.
Is your claim that the LTRs remain but the protein-coding region has disappeared? Do the LTRs ever get a mutation when they are replicated? Already answered multiple times.
Are all LTRs associated with retroviruses? LTRs are by definition from retroviral insertions.
If you don't have the viral protein-coding genes in the genetic sequence, and the LTRs have evolved, how can you be sure this genetic sequence is from a retrovirus? The same way you can identify a partial fingerprint.
How do you determine that this piece of genetic material is the remnant of a retrovirus rather than host DNA when the viral protein-coding DNA is gone? The same way we know a partial fingerprint is from a finger.
Can the host vertebrate genome have its own LTRs that are not from a virus? Can a murder weapon have its own fingerprints? All you are trying to do is used the Omphalos argument. Arguing that the human genome was created with genetic scars from retroviral insertion is nonsense. It's like saying the universe was created last Thursday, complete with a false history and false memories.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Kleinman writes: He is now shifting his argument from ERVs to LTRs. LTRs are ERVs, you fucking moron.
The correct picture he should use for his argument looks like this: You would deny that those are tires. Instead, they are round pieces of rubber that were created with the Earth 6,000 years ago. They never came from a tire factory, nor did they ever reside on a car.
Taq can look at this picture and tell us what vehicle these tires came off simply by the brand of tire. I can tell you they are tires. In the same way, LTRs are the tires of the ERV vehicle. Your argument seems to be that the Earth was created with those tires already in place.
It is no surprise that Taq would rather argue about what he thinks atheism and agnosticism mean, or post a bunch of references that he claims explain how drug resistance evolves and then gets angry because I point out that he doesn't quote from any of them. You fucking moron. You don't even understand the papers you claim to reference. You don't even understand that modeling asexual reproduction does not accurately model the evolution of sexual species. You can't even understand that the mutation rate is different in humans and in bacteria.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Kleinman writes: It appears you are having difficulty posting a quote from any of your papers that you think describes the mathematics of the evolution of drug resistance. You don't need mathematics to explain how antibiotic resistance evolves, you fucking moron.
The fact is that biologists have failed to describe the physics and mathematics of biological evolution and the evolution of drug resistance. Prove it. Show me every paper in existence on antibiotic resistance and show me that none of them have the requisite math.
I'm familiar with most of those papers you listed and none give the correct mathematics. You wouldn't recognize correct math if it was right in front of you, you fucking moron.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
Kleinman writes: So, now you claim an LTR is an ERV? Everyone in biology claims that, you fucking moron.
That's a relief for those with HIV, they don't have to worry about herpes simplex, herpes zoster, or cytomegalovirus,... affecting them. Which has nothing to do with what you asked.
Sure, we got your nonsensical answer that LTRs are the same as ERVs, LTRs would be ERVs if they had viral protein-coding regions. Any remnant of a retroviral insertion is an ERV. Solo LTR's are what is left over after homologous recombination of a full length ERV. Solo LTR's are the result of mutations in full length ERVs.
But you claim you can identify proteins even when they don't exist. They do exist in many ERVs, you fucking moron.
So the 10% of LTRs that have some remaining protein-coding regions associated with them, why isn't the LTR altered as well? Most of them are altered, you fucking moron. How do we tell that both mice and humans have a cytochrome c gene? How do you think that works? The two gene sequences differ by quite a bit, so how can they tell these are the same gene?
Is your claim now that the genetic sequences for LTRs never evolve? No, you fucking moron. I have never said that. As shown by genes shared by many different vertebrates, it's possible to identify homologous sequence even when the sequence differs. These are basic, basic concepts, and you can't seem to understand them.
A long terminal repeat (LTR) is a pair of identical sequences of DNA, several hundred base pairs long, which occur in eukaryotic genomes on either end of a series of genes or pseudogenes that form a retrotransposon or an endogenous retrovirus or a retroviral provirus. So how do you think the authors of the human genome paper were able to distinguish between LTRs from retroviruses and LTRs from retrotransposons?
Do vertebrates have retrotransposons that are not ERVs? Wrong question. What are the LTR sequences?
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
Kleinman writes: When he realized what the structure of DNA is, there is no rational way to explain the evolution of such a molecule. So says the person who accepts the irrational belief that DNA was magically poofed into being.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
Kleinman writes: Are you going to explain to us why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments? I already did multiple times, and here we are again. You fucking moron.
You are the one claiming that biologists have explained the evolution of drug resistance. And they have, you fucking moron.
Sure I would Taq, it is right here in this paper: None of which actually matches reality. For example, the rate of appearance for antibiotic resistance in the Lenski paper differs based on the genetic background of the bacteria. Where is that in your math? Genomic evolution of antibiotic resistance is contingent on genetic background following a long-term experiment with Escherichia coli - PubMed Not only that, but the appearance of antibiotic resistance can differ by 1,000 fold depending on the antibiotic. Where is that in your math? REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS - PMC On top of everything else, your math is completely irrelevant to the vast majority of adaptation in biology.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
RenaissanceMan writes:
The number and length of proteins in humans alone is staggering. Why don't you Darwinists suggest how your magic selection picked exactly the correct L-amino acid and formed a peptide bond with precisely the next L-amino acid over and over and over again in that primordial soup.
For the purposes of this thread, let's grant that abiogenesis is impossible. Instead, God created the first life on Earth as a simple prokaryote with the basic genetics and metabolism that is shared by all the life we see now. So exactly what is your objection to the life we see today evolving from that created ancestor?
The real answer is that Darwin's worshippers simply reject anything contradicting His Gospel - "selection". Gospel? Projection much? If you don't think natural selection occurs in biology, we can certainly start there.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
RenaissanceMan writes: A simple prokaryote has NOTHING remotely resembling titin muscle protein inside it, much less 20,000 different proteins found in humans. How is that a problem?
What is inside us is NOT "shared by all the life we see." Yes, it is. All life uses the same codons and transcription machinery, and many metabolic pathways are shared.
Humans have at least ten different systems, all essential for life, all interdependent, and all had to be present in the first human, but assuredly not the first prokaryote. How is that a problem?
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
RM writes: Titin is the largest protein in the human body. It consists of 38,138 amino acid residues in a precise sequence. Where did you show that titin requires a precise sequence? In fact, it is difficult to detect disease causing mutations in titin because of its high variability in the human population. "However, not all TTN variants detected in cardiomyopathy cohorts can be assumed to be disease-causing. The interpretation of TTN variants remains challenging due to high background population variation."Exploring TTN variants as genetic insights into cardiomyopathy pathogenesis and potential emerging clues to molecular mechanisms in cardiomyopathies | Scientific Reports The following page contains a database of over 15,000 known human titin variants: https://databases.lovd.nl/shared/transcripts/00001778
The first, original synthesis, whether stepwise or in one single, continuous process, consisted of "selecting," in any manner you contemplate, 1 out of the 20 amino acids making up humans, one at a time, 38,138 times in succession. That's not how evolution works. Recombination can add thousands of amino acids in one fell swoop. Titin itself is known for being the product of recombination. A comparison of titin across different species reveals its evolutionary past:
quote:
Only Levorotary (left-handed) amino acids, not Dextrorotary (right-handed) amino acids are present in human proteins.* So to account for this chirality factor, the first computation of 1 in 10 to the 49,618th power has to be multiplied by 1/2 to the 38,138th power (1 in 10 to the 11,480th power).
Apparently, you don't understand how RNA transcription and protein translation work. Perhaps you could start there. Ribosomes make proteins in cells. Proteins don't form from random connection of individual amino acids. Only L-amino acids are charged on transfer RNA's, so that isn't an issue. Translation: DNA to mRNA to Protein | Learn Science at Scitable
Finally, "selection," that magic word Darwin so popularized, demands that at each successive naturalistic step, there must be some advantage conferred to the organism, Apparently you aren't aware of neutral theory either. The vast majority of variation in the human genome is due to neutral drift, not natural selection. Also, are you saying that none of the DNA differences between humans and chimps are beneficial in humans? If so, could you please explain? Edited by Taq, . Edited by Taq, . Edited by Taq, . Edited by Taq, .
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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dwise1 writes: You just saw in his Message 1116 "reply to you" how RenaissanceMan dumped a huge steaming pile of too-technical bullshit intended to be way over your head and hence to bully you with huge numbers you cannot understand. That is a common creationist tactic that turns out to be ironic since the creationists using it also do not understand it -- that is one reason why most creationists refuse to discuss or defend their own claims, because they don't understand their own claims which they are just regurgitating from what they've been told. If I went onto a religious discussion forum and told everyone that none of the 7 gospels can be true since Jesus could not have been resurrected 95 days after being hanged I would not expect anyone to take me seriously. Creationists consistently describe biology in a similar wrong way. It is obvious they don't have a working knowledge of how biology works, and that is not a knock against them because they know about as much about biology as any random non-scientist. The problem is that they don't think their ignorance of biology in any way hampers their ability to tell all of the biologists they are wrong. I'm sure car mechanics have to put up with the same type of people all of the time. In this thread we have someone who thinks new proteins have to evolve by random amino acids joining up and creating a new protein. No DNA involved at all. They don't even seem to know that proteins are translated from RNA which is transcribed from DNA. Does that stop them from telling all biologists they are wrong? Nope. I don't fault ID/creationist internet warrior for lacking this knowledge. The problem is that they lack the humility and self awareness to understand why they need this knowledge in order to challenge the science.
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Taq Member Posts: 10345 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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dwise1 writes: Are creationists aware that they are lying or are they simply too ignorant to know better? Well, it's both. Most of them obviously don't understand anything about their claims except how their handlers had played them up ("This will just blow you evolutionists away!"). Even most of their handlers share their ignorance and don't know any better. It's pigeon chess. "Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."--Scott D. Weitzenhoffer Creationists are there to look like they went up against the meany atheists. They aren't interested in actually understanding biology or furthering our knowledge.
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