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Author | Topic: The Second Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
xongsmith Member Posts: 2641 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
please see Message 231
"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned! Enjoy every sandwich! - xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2641 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
please also see Message 229, in which Percy also lists TONS of Trumpshit that you have also NOT DENIED, including any with evidence.
we are all trying to understand how you can be so willfully ignorant of these items listed in these 2 posts. either you are a STUPID, or.... you are a callous sadistic cruel asshole like trump obviously is. WAKE THE FUCK UP!"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned! Enjoy every sandwich! - xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale
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Tangle Member Posts: 9626 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Justice hasn't been done and has been seen not to be done.
This is only the beginning I fear, he'll now attack the institutions and the holders of positions in them that he dislikes - the President is immune, American justice is at great riskJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. |
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
What is the point of an empty quote? If you want to refer to a specific message just say [msg=229]. You'll get Message 229, and if you hover over the link it will provide information about the message.
Very good then. It's clear that you have nothing positive to say about Trump, and nothing negative to say about Harris. What's important is whether I said anything untrue. Did I? And did you actually read the whole message? I did say negative things about Harris. Here they are again:
But the question was which one has the advantage (or is better-suited) in specific, relevant, critical areas: That question was answered pretty thoroughly, but let me give it the same organization you used:
Now let's look at your list:
• Handling the illegal immigrant problem internally – Trump You must be referring to illegal immigrants already in the country. If you believe wholesale deportation with all its attendant cruelties is "handling" the problem then I guess you have to give the edge to Trump.
• Fixing both the North and South border disasters – Trump Again, if you believe the cruelties Trump inflicted upon people trying to enter the country illegally is "fixing" the problem, then give the edge to Trump.
• Tangling with China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela – Trump Why would you say this? Trump is like putty in the hands of Xi, Putin and Un. Khamenei's a cipher to me, so I won't comment. I don't know why you threw Venezuela in there. That poor country is just a mess, not a threat.
• Economy – Trump If by "Economy" you mean the rich will get richer, including Trump, and our environment will be exploited, then sure, Trump would be your guy.
• Straightening out the Regulatory and Bureaucratic agencies – Trump You're going to have to be more specific. Are you sure this isn't a problem Trump made up so he could claim only he could fix it?
• Weeding out corruption within the Power Structure - Trump Again, you're going to have to be more specific. Are you sure this isn't another problem Trump made up so he could claim only he could fix it?
• Addressing the health care mess that is coming front and center – Trump Again, you're going to have to be more specific. I agree that health care is too expensive and that navigating the maze is far too complicated. I've argued to several administrators that the complexities of obtaining health care are manageable for people in their 60's and 70's, but as people get older their abilities diminish, and our current system is beyond the capabilities of many in their 80's and 90's. But Trump wants to get rid of the ACA and has no proposed replacement. I'm in favor of any solution that makes health care more easily and widely available.
• Regaining our respect as the world leader, competent and strong – Trump Last time Trump made us a laughing stock, albeit a strong and scary one, and he's doing it again with his threats against Denmark, Panama and Canada.
• Addressing domestic crime – Trump Crime is down. Are you sure this isn't another problem Trump made up so he could claim only he could fix it?
I give Trump the advantage in all of them. In which ones do see Harris as having the advantage? I see you as a rube for Trump. He's a snake oil salesman and you're buying. --Percy
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K.Rose Member Posts: 234 From: Michigan Joined: Member Rating: 3.9 |
Admin writes in Message 254: How so?....How do you like it when it's done to you? I'm OK with it. I'm not sure why you defend this entry as a stand-alone point of debate, so again: "....but Trump doesn't uphold the Constitution..." is a significant accusation. It merits supporting evidence. "He [s***s] all over it." is an abstract crude colloquialism that implies discontent, but as a form of debate it needs some explanation.
quote: I can agree that the lopsided focus of this thread is harsh conjecture regarding Trump's thoughts, motivations, beliefs, and purposes. Factual events are cited, but the ensuing conclusions are wholly subjective. Prevailing opinion is not fact, and it is not obtuse to reject this prevailing opinion. Trump is not a perfect man, but treating him as an insincere thoroughly corrupt utterly irredeemable monster who is incapable of thinking or doing anything good for anybody but himself is not just being obtuse, it's kinda silly. Trump was once a famous and wealthy figure, generally beloved by the socio-cultural folks who now despise him, but since 2015 Trump has endured the stress of the presidency, attacks from all angles, false accusations, meritless prosecutions, has reduced his billionaire fortune through his presidency, he has been shot and nearly killed, and he has been the target of a second assassin, yet he soldiers on. He's in his twilight years, he doesn't need this when he could be relaxing for the rest of his life. But he continues his MAGA endeavor, and if he's doing this just so he can go down in history as the greatest president ever, then fine, as long as it's good for the US.
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1
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K.Rose writes: I agree that Trump wants very much to "leave a legacy" but am unconvinced to what ends he will go to achieve it. This recent talk about annexing Greenland and Canada sounds like a man voicing out loud what would be possible to get away with. Unlike the majority here at this Forum, I believe that Trump is capable of showing honor. I also know that his ego is his major weakness! Ultimately he will be judged on what he does vs what he could have done. Trump was once a famous and wealthy figure, generally beloved by the socio-cultural folks who now despise him, but since 2015 Trump has endured the stress of the presidency, attacks from all angles, false accusations, meritless prosecutions, has reduced his billionaire fortune through his presidency, he has been shot and nearly killed, and he has been the target of a second assassin, yet he soldiers on. He's in his twilight years, he doesn't need this when he could be relaxing for the rest of his life. But he continues his MAGA endeavor, and if he's doing this just so he can go down in history as the greatest president ever, then fine, as long as it's good for the US. When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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K.Rose writes in Message 260: "....but Trump doesn't uphold the Constitution..." is a significant accusation. It merits supporting evidence. The evidence has already been discussed in this thread. If you'd like to discuss it in greater detail feel free to delve into it. Xongsmith was only alluding to what has already been discussed, and you pretended you had no idea what he was talking about.
"He [s***s] all over it." is an abstract crude colloquialism that implies discontent, but as a form of debate it needs some explanation. There's nothing about language in the Forum Guidelines. That was a conscious decision I made over 20 years ago.
I can agree that the lopsided focus of this thread is harsh conjecture regarding Trump's thoughts, motivations, beliefs, and purposes. Who are you agreeing with?
Factual events are cited, but the ensuing conclusions are wholly subjective. Prevailing opinion is not fact, and it is not obtuse to reject this prevailing opinion. You're refusing to draw obvious conclusions from the facts. A person convicted of a felony is a felon. A person who incites insurrection is an insurrectionist. A person who attempts to overturn a free and fair election by empaneling false slates of electors and lobbying and threatening state Secretaries of State (to Raffensperger: "that’s a criminal offense...a big risk to you") to find more votes does not respect the constitution. Those are not opinions. Those are straightforward and obvious conclusions drawn from the facts.
Trump is not a perfect man, but treating him as an insincere thoroughly corrupt utterly irredeemable monster who is incapable of thinking or doing anything good for anybody but himself is not just being obtuse, it's kinda silly. I don't think anyone's expressed it in quite these terms, but it does capture the spirit of the way many people feel about Trump, and it's because of what he says and does. Trump was once a famous and wealthy figure,... Where are you getting this stuff? Trump is still famous and wealthy.
...generally beloved by the socio-cultural folks who now despise him,... You'll have to tell us who you're talking about, but I grew up in the New York metropolitan area and can tell you that Trump was never beloved by New York society, if that's who you mean.
...but since 2015 Trump has endured the stress of the presidency,... Why do you think Trump found the presidency stressful? His mornings were blocked off as personal time. He played 261 rounds of golf. He was at a Trump property (i.e., not at the White House) nearly one day out of three.
...attacks from all angles,... Undeserved attacks, or just criticisms for things he said or did, like suggesting bleach for covid or Sharpiegate regarding Hurricane Dorian.
...false accusations,... Can you be specific?
...meritless prosecutions,... Which prosecutions were meritless and how so?
...has reduced his billionaire fortune through his presidency,... If you're referring to the $454 million award in New York and the $88.3 million awarded to E. Jean Carroll, he wasn't president at the time of the awards, and according to Forbes his net worth is now $6.1 billion post-election. Where are you getting your information? Trump? If so, you might want to apply a healthy skepticism to anything he says. Today after sentencing he asked for donations. I hope you didn't fall for it.
...he has been shot and nearly killed, and he has been the target of a second assassin, yet he soldiers on.... The assassination attempts were horrible things, and public figures in particular are in danger of gun violence. Perhaps fewer guns would help?
He's in his twilight years, he doesn't need this when he could be relaxing for the rest of his life. Trump is one of those people who craves power and isn't happy unless he's the center of attention.
But he continues his MAGA endeavor, and if he's doing this just so he can go down in history as the greatest president ever, then fine, as long as it's good for the US. I'm sure we all hope that Trump proves good for the U.S. over the next four years, but the evidence from his first term is alarming. --Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6186 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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How can a Christian support such a man? The quick answer is that far too many Christians, especially those "true Christians", no longer follow Christian doctrine. Speaking for myself and, I'm certain, many if not most other forum members, I was raised as a child on Christian teachings, so we are well aware of what Christianity teaches. What passes for Christianity now has become unrecognizable. A couple months ago, Ed Babinski posted on Facebook this quote (as a graphic which I have transcribed here) of Russell Moore (I assume that Wikipedia reference to be to the same person); the original NPR interview cited is posted here:
quote: A few months back I heard a recommendation on YouTube (from Erika "Gutsick Gibbon") for this book, Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation by Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Since reading the first three of its 16 chapters (300 pages of text, 32 pages of small-font bibliography), my reading time was diverted to another book (US Navy Fundamentals of War Gaming), so this is from memory. The book goes through a history of the growth and development of that movement, so the first chapters were mainly to lay the groundwork. A basic thesis is that contemporary American Christians in the 20th Century were unnerved by social changes and Protestant men found themselves seeking a stronger and more "masculine" alternative to weak and "effeminate" traditional Christianity, something that they found in the rugged imagery of frontier cowboys especially as portrayed by Hollywood (which is where John Wayne comes in). Since that doesn't really tell you much, here are some descriptions from amazon.com (link given above with the book's name):
Description: AI Summary of Customer Comments: Reviews: I added this to support the observation that what passes as "Christianity" and "being a Christian" has changed greatly, such that what we have grown up to think as "being Christian" doesn't really apply anymore. Just for fun, as long as "Christians" are looking for a more masculine "Jesus", how could they go wrong with National Lampoon's Son-O-God comics (link from the bottom of the author's Wikipedia article? Good reading! Like with Shazam, when "nebbishy Brooklynite (thirty-year old Benny David) who still lives with his overbearing parents" says the magic word, "JEE-ZUZ!", he's transformed into the superhero, Son-O-God, accompanied by the Holy Spirit, a white dove who, according to a reader's letter-to-the-editor, used to shoot bullets out his mouth like a machine gun. Can't get much more über-masculine than that! Another clue to the answer you seek would be The Fellowship, AKA "The Family" (not to be confused with an authoritarian cult by that same name which has nothing to do with this subject). The Fellowship is examined in the Netflix documentary series, The Family. Over the decades they have insinuated themselves into Washington politics; they are the ones who organized the annual National Prayer Breakfast which serves as a networking event with national politicians. I watched it years ago, but what I remember, besides the cult-like structure which sucks in newly arrived congressmen to live with them, is that while nominally Christian, their "Bible" is not the Bible nor even the Gospels, but rather a small book simply titled "Jesus" (as I recall; watch the series) which expounds their non-biblical doctrine.
This is key. Their doctrine does not extoll Jesus, but rather King David. Instead of being lambs, they are to be the wolves among the sheep ostensibly to protect those sheep (but I'm a bit hazy on the fine points there). The reasoning for extolling King David is because he was a bad man who displayed the opposite of Godly traits, but whom God used through whom to do His Work. The lesson is that we must place these bad men into positions of power so that God can do His Work through them. Another historic bad man who frequently comes up (including with Christian Nationalists) is King Cyrus of Persia whom God used to free the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity. Doug Coe took over The Fellowship from founder Abraham Vereide; from the Wikipedia article:
quote: In this paradigm, it does not matter in the least how bad and un-Godly a person Trump is. Just put him in a position of great power so the God can use him. They quite literally do not care how immoral and amoral Trump is. A Christian would care (or at least should care), but they do not and never will. Just because Trump's supporters say that they are Christians, doesn't mean we should believe them.
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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That the Christians who come here have lost sight of what it means to be Christian would explain a lot. It also explains Christianity throughout history, like the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and the Puritans. They might think they're Christians, that they're saved, that they've let Jesus into their heart, that they're the good guys, but they're just kidding themselves.
So we shouldn't expect self-declared Christians to act like Christians because they're not really Christians. It's their cultural backdrop, but it's not something they live. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
I just now came up with the term CHRINO for Christian In Name Only and then figured it must already exist, and looking it up it does already exist. Unfortunately it's not uniformly defined. One definition, possibly from outside Christianity, is someone one identifies as Christian but doesn't truly believe the teachings of Christianity. Another definition, probably from inside Christianity, is someone who identifies as Christian but doesn't believe that Christ alone is the only path to salvation.
I have my own definition: Someone who identifies as Christian and believes the teachings of Christianity but bends them or misinterprets them for their own convenience. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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After Trump met with Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau he related this conversation:
Donald Trump: I'm sure everyone's noticed by now that when Trump relates a conversation that everyone talks like him, and they all appear as ignorant as him. But of course Trudeau knows that the U.S. doesn't subsidize Canada and that he wouldn't respond as if we did. Trump is actually referring to the U.S. trade deficit with Canada, which isn't $250 billion, nor $200 billion as he started to say, nor $100 billion, the figure he gave when he was on NBC's Meet the Press on December 8th of last year. The correct figure for our trade deficit with Canada is $40.6 billion for the most recent year for which there are figures, 2023. We bought $481.6 billion of their goods and services, and they bought $440.9 billion of ours. If trade deficits were actually subsidies then Hong Kong, Netherlands, Brazil, Australia, Belgium, Singapore, the United Kingdom, Columbia and Chile are all subsidizing the United States. See Tariffs Will Hurt Canadians And Americans Alike | Hoover Institution and Countries That The U.S. Has A Trade Surplus With | wealthMD. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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I have no idea why, but media and government figures all do it. When Trump says something absurd or insulting they give Trump air by responding to it or about it. Greenland Prime Minister Mute Egede is the latest offender, saying yesterday that he was ready to speak to Trump. No good will come of this. Trump will threaten Egede to his face and Egede will just have to take it.
What Egede should have said is nothing. His next best choice would have been to say that he will not dignify Trump's comments by responding but that he is prepared to meet with Trump when he begins speaking reasonably and responsibly about Greenland. His next best choice, and this is the one I like best, would have been to declare that Greenland is not being properly compensated by the U.S. for the military bases and the research programs Greenland allows it to conduct and that the U.S. owes Greenland billions. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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The information presented here is taken from How Hitler Dismantled a Democracy in 53 Days - The Atlantic.
Hitler never made any secret of his intentions. After his failed 1923 putsch he announced in a "legality oath" his intention to gain power through legal means and then use the constitution to mold the German government as he saw fit. Germans were on notice. In Germany the chancellor is the head of government. Hitler was appointer chancellor by President Hindenberg because the Nazi party was the larger party in a coalition that controlled 51% of the Reichstag and hence was the ruling coalition. Once Hitler became chancellor he immediately began plotting to gain dictatorial powers. He wanted what was called an "empowering law" which would grant him the right to rule by decree without parliamentary approval, eliminating the separation of powers. In his first cabinet meeting he declared that he would fire key government officials and replace them with loyalists. Sound familiar? Two of the promises he made were to expel foreigners he claimed were "poisoning" the blood of the nation, and take vengeance on political opponents. Also familiar? Hitler now headed a cabinet that was not of his making but of his predecessor, but he was able to appoint two ministers, Wilhelm Frick and Hermann Göring. They immediately set to work carrying out Hitler's agenda. Frick announced that they would present an enabling law to the Reichstag that would dissolve the Reich government. Göring was charged with cleaning house at Prussia's police force (Prussia was 2/3 of Germany at the time). One prescient Göring quote: “I cannot rely on police to go after the red mob if they have to worry about facing disciplinary action when they are simply doing their job.” Sound familiar? Göring also introduced storm troopers and legitimized the tens of thousands ruffian brownshirts in the service of the Nazi party's goals. Another similarity: Hitler tried to increase tariffs, on grain in particular, though he was unsuccessful at the time. The burning of the Reichstag turned everything upside down and presented Hitler the opportunity to force through everything he wanted under the guise of emergency powers. The Communist Party was banned, new elections were held, and in the restructured Reichstag the Nazis were able to form a coalition government that would pass the empowering law. The Nazi's had little concern of blowback as they carried out their plans because of Göring's installation of loyalists in the Prussian police and all the brownshirts now on the streets. Protest would be minimal. In a decree Hitler granted amnesty to all Nazis convicted of crimes, including murder. Men convicted of treason became national heros. Sound familiar? The reconstituted Reichstag granted Hitler his "enabling law", and after a few decrees the Germany Republic disappeared and became a dictatorship led by Hitler, all within the powers of the German constitution. The article concludes with a quote from Joseph Goebbels: "The big joke on democracy is that it gives its mortal enemies the means to its own destruction." For Trump to follow Hitler's roadmap he needs a precipitating event that would allow him to declare a national emergency. Trump is already talking about declaring a national emergency over tariffs. --Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6186 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
It's their cultural backdrop, but it's not something they live. Worse than a cultural backdrop, more of a smokescreen. It gives them an excuse for their malfeasance and atrocities. And motivation for their declaration and waging of their culture wars against America. And justification for every wrongful and despicable act they commit "in service to God." As I've related, I received my fundamentalist training as a "fellow traveler" of the Jesus Freak Movement circa 1970. At that time they fixated on biblical literalism and inerrancy, demonology (eg, seeing demons at work everywhere, especially in cases of sleep paralysis), and the End Times. That last included a common pasttime of seeing prophecies of the impending onset of the Tribulation and trying to identify the Antichrist. They also taught that the Antichrist would seduce most Christians, but they would never fall for that trick! Ironically, the best candidates for the Antichrist are Trump and Putin (personally, I think Putin would be the Antichrist and Trump the Beast) who have seduced and recruited those fundamentalists. Despite glaringly clear signs that they would have immediately seen and seized upon half a century ago. For example, Trump's ear wound from the assassination attempt whose immediate and complete healing Trump dismissed as a miracle of his "incredible ability to heal". We got "reports" of his wound that half his ear had been blown off (from Donnie Jr.) and, despite a complete blocking of information (so much for K.Rose's promise of transparency from Trump), something about a 2-cm gash (about ¾ inch). Although the first photo showed a small band-aid on Trump's ear, for his next public appearance he had what looked like a feminine hygiene product taped over his ear (with the audience mimicking him that should have given Kotex windfall earnings), then after a few appearances carrying on that charade he showed up with no bandaging and no sign of any wound (which he "hanged a lantern on" by boasting of his good genes for healing). My fundamentalist training kicked in immediately and I remembered the fundie descriptions of the the Beast, for which I tracked down this passage from Revelation (my bolding included):
Revelation 13, KJV: How much the "true Christians" have blinded themselves to their own theology to follow Trump! That they have gleefully abandoned their faith in order to worship the Beast and Antichrist! Sadly, that is their only prophesy to have been fulfilled.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6186 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
PBS had a two- or three-part series a few years ago detailing how the Nazis systematically disabled and subsumed the departments of government, especially the law enforcement and justice systems. The show's format centered around a government hierarchy chart.
Sorry, I forget its title, but it played again a few months ago so it should play again ... unless the Trump Administration bans it.
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