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Author Topic:   About that Boat - Noah's Ark
AdminAsgara
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From: The Universe
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Message 151 of 296 (93391)
03-19-2004 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by kendemyer
03-19-2004 4:05 PM


Re: noah's ark: insects and sea creatures not invited
Ken, please see this post: http://EvC Forum: Kendemeyer Has Been Suspended

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by kendemyer, posted 03-19-2004 4:05 PM kendemyer has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 152 of 296 (93459)
03-19-2004 11:48 PM


dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
The issue of whales inside the ark has very real consequences to the seaworthiness of the ark. the free-surface effect can cause the ark to capsize, and the volume question becomes almost mute. Likewise insects that cause the structure to collapse like a mud house in an earthquake.
On the issue of insects: if insects were not required to be inside the ark (1) many of the "flesh" animals would die for lack of food (note I make specific reference to "anteaters" that feed exclusively on termites) and (2) there should then be all the species of insect from before the flood event as there are after ... this is ridiculous when you look at the fossil record to see how many species should then be alive.
On the issue of whales, how would they be any less "flesh" than cows and pigs and goats and chickens and ... you should get the picture by now.
The two websites posted are not answers to these issues as they raise more questions than they answer. OR this is another dance around the issue, a new "god of the gap" argument, where now we can decide which species were inside and which didn't have to be, the ultimate end being only Noah and his family and the family cow needed to be inside. These are not answers for people who want to think about it, IMAO, but spoon fed syrup for those who want to be coddled.
AIG in particular is known for misrepresenting facts and statements by scientists, and has no qualms about doing so even after the errors have been pointed out. (do a site search on [polonium] or [paluxy] ... both known hoaxes).
From the KJV (online) http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/kjv/genesis/
Genesis 6: 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. ... 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. ... 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
Genesis 7: 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 8: 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

-- No wiggle room there.
From the NIV (online) BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Ibs
"Genesis 6: 13 So God said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. ... 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. ... 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.
Genesis 7: 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
Genesis 8: 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

-- No wiggle room there.
Everything on earth will perish. ... And every living thing was destroyed ... except only what was in the ark. ... And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
No wiggle room at all.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Quetzal, posted 03-20-2004 7:15 AM RAZD has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 153 of 296 (93484)
03-20-2004 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by RAZD
03-19-2004 11:48 PM


Re: dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
Hey Abby,
I'm not sure that you're right about the "no wiggle room". Both of the verses you cite are quite specific about the Flud being designed to wipe out all the LAND animals - including insects, by this definition.
"...which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven;..."
and
"...men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth..."
However, that still leaves 4-5 million species, mostly insects, unaccounted for - call it 8-10 up to 35 million individual specimens depending on how you calculate which were clean or unclean (I wonder if marsupials were clean or unclean? They're not mentioned anywhere as one of the biblical kinds). In addition, the passages completely beg the sea life question (my guess is the goat herders that penned this thing thought if it swims, it must have been okay in a Flud), not to mention parasites, various disease organisms, virii, prions etc etc that would have had to be on the ark itself along with the animals. The problem is much more complicated than a simple space calculation.
Creationists either have to agree to a incredibly high speciation rate post-Flud (I once calculated something like 1200 speciation events per year since Noah & co. set foot on Ararat just to account for the living species, not including all the extinct ones) with each generation producing massive phenotypical change (within a "kind" no less ) in a true chicken from a lizard's egg form OR decide that the Ark was the size of a small continent. You should read Morris's "The Genesis Flood" (Baker Book House, 1979). It's great high comedy seeing the founder of modern "scientific (sic) creationism" wiggle about trying to solve these issues.
Anyway, my point is the verses themeselves aren't the problem. You can graciously grant the creationists their interpretation, and then shred the entire idea just by looking at modern biodiversity and asking how it got there in 4500 years...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2004 11:48 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 03-20-2004 3:09 PM Quetzal has replied

Bill Birkeland
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 165
From: Louisiana
Joined: 01-30-2003


Message 154 of 296 (93538)
03-20-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by John
09-20-2002 2:50 PM


Length of Chinese Treasure Ships
In message 2, John wrote:
"I hate to side with the bad guys but it looks like the Chinese were
able to build some cargo ships which at least approached the size of
the ark. Historical records record a length of over 400 feet, and one
bit of reverse engineering suggests over 500."
The figures cited for the length of the Chinese treasure ships are questionable because of uncertainties about how long the official unit of measurement, the zhang. was. This is discussed in "When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne 1405 - 1433" by Louise Levathes at: Page not found | Ripon College
In this article, Louise Levathes stated:
"The bao chuan (treasure boat) or long chuan (dragon boat) were "44 zhang
4 chi long and 18 Zhang wide." However, the official length of a chi, or
Chinese foot, varied considerably throughout the Ming Dynasty, from 9.5
inches to over 13 inches. Moreover, the chi varied depending on what it
was being used to construct and where it was being used; building
standards in the empire were not uniform."
"Based on actual shipbuilding chi unearthed in Fujian province, which
varied in length from 10-53 to 11.037 inches, the largest of the treasure
ships is now thought to have been between about 390 and 408 feet long
and 160 to 166 feet wide, still one of the largest wooden sailboats ever
built anywhere in the world."
Another web page to look at is the "Rise and Fall of 15th Century Chinese Seapower" by Michael L. Bosworth at: http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/china.htm
and "Tribute and Trade" at:
http://koreanhistoryproject.org/Ket/Idx/KETIndex0901.htm
One thing that makes me wonder about the accuracy of the lengths of the Chinese ships provided by Chinese historical records is they also report that Admiral Zheng He, who was in charge of the "treasure" ships, was over 8 ft tall. This reported height certainly sounds like a case where the captain's height has grown with the retelling and re-reporting of the actual event by second-hand, even third-hand, fourth-hand, and so forth, accounts. It would be interesting to know how far removed the people reporting the lengths of these ships are removed from either the primary documentation or witnesses to these ships. Unless a person wants to argue for the infallibility of Chinese historians, the further the sources reporting these lengths are from the actual primary documents and witnesses, the more suspect that the lengths they reported can be. Given that the ships, any blueprints, and primary documentation was deliberately destroyed when these voyages were abandoned, it is possible that later scholars were indulging in a large amount of guess work, including their length, when they later wrote about these voyages.
It would be interesting for someone to find out how far removed from the demise of the 15th century Chinese treasure ships the historians, who wrote about them, were in time and location. Because, if they were relying on second-hand, third-hand, fourth-hand, and so forth sources, then there would a considerable amount of question about how trustworthy their estimates of the lengths of the Chinese "treasure ships" and even if they can be trusted at all.
In message 6, Mespo stated:
" I followed your Google suggestion and found 4 sites giving the length of
the largest Chinese ships as 400, 475, 600 and 444 feet respectively. *sigh*"
Just because something is found on Google doesn't mean it is true. The truthfulness of these figures depends on the trustworthiness of the sources used by the Chinese who wrote about these Chinese ships. Someone needs to go back to the original reports and find out where they obtained the figures for the lengths of these ships. Given that they reported that Admiral Zheng He was over 8 ft tall certainly suggests that either nationalistic exaggeration or mistranslations of units occurred within the historical records at some point.
Yours,
Bill
Some web pages are:
1. Did Noah really build an ark? By Jeremy Bowen, Presenter, Noah's Ark
BBC News, Friday, 19 March
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/magazine/3524676.stm
2. BBC set to examine Noah and his ark -19/3/04
3. See John Wilkins in "Feedback for October 2000" at;
TalkOrigins Archive - Feedback for October 2000
[This message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 03-20-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by John, posted 09-20-2002 2:50 PM John has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 155 of 296 (93541)
03-20-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Quetzal
03-20-2004 7:15 AM


Re: dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
Sorry you are only looking at G7 -- go to the G8 verses
KJV - "neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."
NIV - "never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done."
that is where the wiggle room stops.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Quetzal, posted 03-20-2004 7:15 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Quetzal, posted 03-22-2004 9:55 AM RAZD has replied

Bill Birkeland
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 165
From: Louisiana
Joined: 01-30-2003


Message 156 of 296 (93550)
03-20-2004 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mespo
09-20-2002 4:06 PM


Iron Was Used in Chinese Treasure Ship Construction
"Well, I'm getting closer.
Here's Great Republic.
She was 325 x 53 x 40 and was cross-braced with iron.
Still have to find something build completely out of wood, bracing and all."
Actually, it appears that the Chinese treasure ships, technically speaking were more like the Great Republic, in that they used iron to strengthen their keel according to "When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne 1405 - 1433" by Louise Levathes at: Page not found | Ripon College
In that article Levathes stated:
"The keel consisted of long pieces of wood bound together with iron hoops."
According to the above statement, an extremely important part of the Chinese treasure ships, their keels, were braced with iron. This something that Noah couldn't have done. These weren't completely iron-free wooden ships. Therefore, they can't be used as historic analogues for arguments about Noah' Ark.
The "Louise Levathes" web page, from which the information above and, in part, message 154 comes from is an excerpt from a book published by Oxford University Press. The book is:
Levathes, Louise, 1994, When China Ruled the
Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon
Throne,1405-1433. Oxford University Press. 256 pp.

ISBN 0195112075
The information about iron being used in construction of the keel of the 15th century Chinese treasure ships and uncertainties concerning their length comes from a well-respected and research book published by well respected academic publisher.
Yours,
Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 03-20-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Mespo, posted 09-20-2002 4:06 PM Mespo has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 157 of 296 (93648)
03-21-2004 11:32 AM


reduction
For me the whole issue of the big boat comes down to two questions:
(1) would you believe this story if it did not from the bible?
(2) would christian faith be affected in any way if the story were not in the bible?
most people would answer no to both questions.
if soemone were to answer yes to the first question and no to the second, then they would have to be regarded as gullible - imho.
if someone were to answer no to the first question and yes to the second, then they need to show how that faith is affected.
those who answer yes to both need to build a working model and load it up -- do the experiment.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 158 of 296 (93828)
03-22-2004 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by RAZD
03-20-2004 3:09 PM


Re: dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
Yeah, but the creationists can (rightly, IMO), point out that G8 refers back to the limited destruction of G7. IOW, God is promising to be a good boy and not wipe out the G7 (isn't that an economic grouping?) again. Once more, my point is that arguing over the interpretation of the wording in a couple of lines of the bible is playing into the creationists' hands - there are soooooo many other, much more viable alternatives to showing what a ridiculous story the Flud is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 03-20-2004 3:09 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 03-22-2004 10:22 AM Quetzal has replied
 Message 170 by RAZD, posted 03-23-2004 1:46 PM Quetzal has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 159 of 296 (93831)
03-22-2004 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Quetzal
03-22-2004 9:55 AM


Re: dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
The best way for creationists to demonstrate the feasibility (to them) of the whole ark scenario is to build a working model of the ark and repeat the "experiment" -- load it up and launch, stay afloat for 600+ whatever days while feeding and managing the menagerie by only 8 people.
My bet is that no creationist organization will be interested in doing such a scientific study.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Quetzal, posted 03-22-2004 9:55 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Quetzal, posted 03-22-2004 10:35 AM RAZD has replied

Mespo
Member (Idle past 2884 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 160 of 296 (93833)
03-22-2004 10:29 AM


Dont' forget about the other Ark
While all the controversy is raging about the Biblical Ark, don't forget about that other contender for the Trans Atlantic Blue Riband, entered into the contest from the Sumerians.
Epic of Gilgamesh writes:
Just as dawn began to glow
the land assembled around me-
the carpenter carried his hatchet,
the reed worker carried his (flattening) stone,
... the men ...
The child carried the pitch,
the weak brought whatever else was needed.
On the fifth day I laid out her exterior.
It was a field in area,
its walls were each 10 times 12 cubits in height,
the sides of its top were of equal length, 10 times 12 cubits each.
I laid out its (interior) structure and drew a picture of it (?).
I provided it with six decks,
thus dividing it into seven (levels).
The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments).
I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part.
I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the
bitumen kiln,
three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it,
there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vege-
table) oil,
apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!)
and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored
away.
I butchered oxen for the meat(!),
and day upon day I slaughtered sheep.
I gave the workmen(?) ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were
river water,
so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival.
... and I set my hand to the oiling(!).
The boat was finished by sunset.
Obviously, God did not favor the Sumerian Ark because those guys were having WAY too much fun building it. I'm sure the ship building specs included a wine cellar. Now, that's my kind of cruise ship.
(:raig

Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 161 of 296 (93835)
03-22-2004 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by RAZD
03-22-2004 10:22 AM


Re: dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
Hee hee. We could even be more generous and let them do their feasibility study on land. I won't even ask them to float a boat. Hell, make it out of concrete (didn't some creationist org build a concrete replica or something? - vague recollection/senior moment here) for all that it matters. Then put Morris' lower limit of ~8000 species on board with a nice mix of carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores, staff it with 8 people untrained in animal husbandry, seal it up except for one little window on top for 600 days. After that, open it up and shovel out the rotting corpses. Of course, PETA would probably get pretty upset...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 03-22-2004 10:22 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by RAZD, posted 03-22-2004 10:44 AM Quetzal has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 162 of 296 (93836)
03-22-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Quetzal
03-22-2004 10:35 AM


Re: dancing on the ark by the light of the moon
do we get to choose which 8 go?
ahahahahaaaa
another way to do it would be as a reality show ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Quetzal, posted 03-22-2004 10:35 AM Quetzal has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 163 of 296 (93837)
03-22-2004 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Mespo
03-22-2004 10:29 AM


Re: Dont' forget about the other Ark
The BBC program last night went with the Sumerian version as the original. They had the ark's cargo include a load of beer. Rather useful when they ran out of drinking water in the middle of the Persian Gulf.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Mespo, posted 03-22-2004 10:29 AM Mespo has not replied

Mespo
Member (Idle past 2884 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 164 of 296 (93839)
03-22-2004 11:06 AM


A Happy Crew
PaulK writes:
The BBC program last night went with the Sumerian version as the original. They had the ark's cargo include a load of beer. Rather useful when they ran out of drinking water in the middle of the Persian Gulf.
So we have the Sumerians to thank for starting all the folklore about drunken sailors. Sweet. Noah was such a damn tea totaller.
(:raig

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 03-22-2004 11:23 AM Mespo has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 165 of 296 (93841)
03-22-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Mespo
03-22-2004 11:06 AM


Re: A Happy Crew
Oh, Noah was quite prepared to get merry himself.
Genesis 9:20-21
"Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. He drank of the wine and became drunk..."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Mespo, posted 03-22-2004 11:06 AM Mespo has not replied

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