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Author Topic:   Forum: Christian Ideology
Mr. Bound
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 56 (93856)
03-22-2004 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Syamsu
03-22-2004 4:12 AM


Re: There's Nothing Funny About Satire
I can see that you can't make your point, because there obviously isn't one, as I expected. Goodbye, don't come back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Syamsu, posted 03-22-2004 4:12 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Syamsu, posted 03-23-2004 8:49 AM Mr. Bound has not replied
 Message 48 by MrHambre, posted 03-23-2004 9:52 AM Mr. Bound has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 47 of 56 (94098)
03-23-2004 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Mr. Bound
03-22-2004 1:44 PM


Re: There's Nothing Funny About Satire
Go read that essay of Gasman I referenced in the other thread, or read Fischer's Nazi Germany: A new history. There you can find pages and pages about the intricate relationship of Darwinism to Nazism. I don't see any use to compact it to a single point.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-22-2004 1:44 PM Mr. Bound has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 48 of 56 (94105)
03-23-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Mr. Bound
03-22-2004 1:44 PM


Pages and Pages
Bound,
If you're really interested in the intricate relationship between Christianity and genocide, here are a few interesting books for you:
The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965 by Michael Phayer
The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism by David I. Kertzer
Pius XII and the Second World War: According to the Archives of the Vatican by Pierre Blet, et al
Hitler, the War, and the Pope by Ronald J. Rychlak
Pius XII and the Holocaust: Understanding the Controversy by Jose M. Sanch
I haven't read any of them but hey, those titles say it all.
regards,
Esteban Nor Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-22-2004 1:44 PM Mr. Bound has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Syamsu, posted 03-24-2004 1:46 AM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 50 by Syamsu, posted 03-24-2004 1:54 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 49 of 56 (94326)
03-24-2004 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by MrHambre
03-23-2004 9:52 AM


Re: Pages and Pages
I once saw a Christian who helped an old lady across the street, therefore Christianity has nothing to do with any genocide whatsoever. Don't you understand rational logic? If Christianity is a baseballbat then you don't blame the manufacturers of baseballbats if people go hitting each other over the head with baseballbats. Let's cut a deal, I absolve Darwinism of all complicity in any genocide, if you absolve Christianity of any complicity in any genocide whatsoever, ok? Why do you keep harping on Christianity and not mention the German militarist tradition at all, you are obviously so biased. You should first read every book in the world about the holocaust, before you have any right to speak about it you ignorant fool.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by MrHambre, posted 03-23-2004 9:52 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-24-2004 6:48 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 50 of 56 (94329)
03-24-2004 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by MrHambre
03-23-2004 9:52 AM


Re: Pages and Pages
oh you seem to have been making a point that there aren't many books on the relationship between Darwinism and Nazism. That's true, but whenever it is in a book, it is noted as very influential, such as in Fischer's Nazi Germany: a new history, which is a standard historybook about Nazi Germany, or Gasman's essay I referenced. I can't explain why there aren't any books solely dealing with the subject Darwinism and Nazism.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by MrHambre, posted 03-23-2004 9:52 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Mr. Bound
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 56 (94558)
03-24-2004 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Syamsu
03-24-2004 1:46 AM


Re: Pages and Pages
That's all I wanted to hear. You've admitted that Darwinism is in no way directly related to genocide, just as I am prepared to admit that Christianity isn't. The question is why do you keep begging discussion of the links between Darwinism and Nazism? It's no big secret. The reason I started this thread was because the only reason I could see for you starting your thread was to point the finger of moral blame at Darwinism, in an attempt to argue that Darwinism is ethically wrong, and should therefore be ignored regardless of whatever scientific integrity it may hold. In other words, I saw that you were inserting ethics, politics and political correctness into a purely scientific debate, where it doesn't belong, as these things have no sway over science. If you can't see where I'm coming from with this, then it is you who are ignorant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Syamsu, posted 03-24-2004 1:46 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Syamsu, posted 03-24-2004 11:20 PM Mr. Bound has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 52 of 56 (94609)
03-24-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Mr. Bound
03-24-2004 6:48 PM


Re: Pages and Pages
Well actually that was just my parody of what is usually offered to me as if it were rational discourse on the subject of the relationship between Darwinism and Nazism.
I don't agree at all that Christianity wasn't directly involved in any genocide. Notably the catholic church have changed / ammended their teachings on Jews after the holocaust. Now there aren't that many catholic priests criticizing the Jews in their sermons. There aren't any scientists going on about the "Jewish Question", as Haeckel did, either.
You would make a terrible historian, which is after all a science of sorts as well, so it makes you a terrible scientist as well. I think it is clearly you who is being anti-science here. You are needlessly injecting politics into the science of history. I have the ideal that science should be free from politics, while you just blandly assume that Darwinist science is free from politics. It's not, as you can see when reading Dawkins, or Lorenz, or Haeckel or Darwin. Or actually you could see that when reading any Darwinist literature whatsoever, because, as I argue, the basic theory of Natural Selection itself is ideologically compromised.
Natural Selection should be formulated individually, in stead of comparitively, if we would apply the same rules which we apply in every other science. That Natural Selection is still formulated comparitively mainly has to do with people's general desire for judgementalism, and especially atheist desire to have a place outside of standard religion to talk in terms of good and bad.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-24-2004 6:48 PM Mr. Bound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-25-2004 1:58 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Mr. Bound
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 56 (94714)
03-25-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Syamsu
03-24-2004 11:20 PM


Re: Pages and Pages
I think it is clearly you who is being anti-science here. You are needlessly injecting politics into the science of history. I have the ideal that science should be free from politics, while you just blandly assume that Darwinist science is free from politics. It's not, as you can see when reading Dawkins, or Lorenz, or Haeckel or Darwin.
You can't just shake your head and say 'No I'm not, you are' without giving a reason. It also seesm to be common knowledge on this board that you haven't read anything by those authors. I can assure you that what I've read of Darwin and Dawkins (The Blind Watchmaker, and The Origin of Species) contain nothing even remotely political in the slightest. I'm sure if you've only ever read a few out-of-context, edited quotes it could be made to look like they do, however.
Natural Selection should be formulated individually, in stead of comparitively, if we would apply the same rules which we apply in every other science.
Please stop talking in riddles and elaborate on this further, if it actually makes any sense whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Syamsu, posted 03-24-2004 11:20 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Syamsu, posted 03-28-2004 12:10 AM Mr. Bound has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 54 of 56 (95301)
03-28-2004 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Mr. Bound
03-25-2004 1:58 PM


Re: Pages and Pages
I read Dawkins Blind Watchmaker, it has obvious atheist prejudices, and anti-religious sentiment. You should more read Darwin's "Descent of Man" to see prejudices in Darwin's writing, which is easily available online on countless sites.
Natural Selection is defined along the lines of the one "form" reproducing more then the other form (comparitive), and this should be the one "form" reproducing or not reproducing (individual).
If black moths encroach on white moths, because the trees turn black, then white moths are being selected against by the environmental factor of black moths, as well as the environmental factor of birds. If an infestation of birds kills all the moths then the moths are selected against by the environment.
I'm not going to explain the fault in natural selection any further to you, because I don't think you would provide worthwile argument. If it has your intellectual interest then you can just look into it yourself, and with such an attitude of intellectual interest you would probably come up with the same arguments for and against as me.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-25-2004 1:58 PM Mr. Bound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-28-2004 6:50 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Mr. Bound
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 56 (95457)
03-28-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Syamsu
03-28-2004 12:10 AM


Re: Pages and Pages
Fine, duck out like normal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Syamsu, posted 03-28-2004 12:10 AM Syamsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Quetzal, posted 03-29-2004 7:34 AM Mr. Bound has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 56 of 56 (95580)
03-29-2004 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Mr. Bound
03-28-2004 6:50 PM


Re: Pages and Pages
Welcome to the Syamasu Zone. (Cue eerie music.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Mr. Bound, posted 03-28-2004 6:50 PM Mr. Bound has not replied

  
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