Fresh Problem with the Ark

AbbyLeever said:

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sorry, hypothesis not supported by actual biblical reference is not valid without it being naturally possible.

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bringing the animals = mentioned = valid
hypbernation = not mentioned = not valid

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what you believe is just rationalizations to attempt to reconcile the impossible with reality.

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Personally, I have no problem with the piling on of miracles, even if not mentioned in the Bible (or, even if mis-described in the Bible).So, if God helped build the ark - Fine.
God helped gather animals - Fine
God somehow got all the animals into the ark - Fine.
God somehow kept all the animals cared for - Fine.
God somehow produced and then disposed of all the water - Fine.
God somehow took care of all the other details - Fine.The miracle that troubles me, is the final (unstated) one. That God lastly somehow removed any and all evidence of the flood having happened. What's the point of it all?My conclusion:The flood was either a great exaggeration of a lesser event, or total fiction.Even if either of the previous is true, the function of the story could be some moral lesson, or could be some totally irrelevant verbiage.I previous created a "Faith and Belief" topic, " Assuming the flood was real", to explore the theological implications of the flood story. I think there was some good discussion at that topic, before it went on to the inevitable topic drift to elsewhere.Cheers,
Moose

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

So, you are claiming that a tendency to want to develop weapons is evidence of an advanced society? This is logic?You said evidence of advanced civilization not a state of war.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

Well, I can understand your frustration Buz. It is a tough row to hoe when you want to overturn something that has worked so well.You need really stong evidence. From what I've seen you present there just isn't that much there. The prophecies you claim seem to require a lot of interpretation that some don't see as reasonable.Untill you have real knock out stuff you're classed in with Nostradamus. Tough.

KNOWN Creatortionista Dinosaur misrepresentations (if not outright hoaxes):CH710.1: Dinosaurs on Ica stones CH710.2: Acambaro dinosaur figurines CC101: Paluxy River footprints These are but the tip of the iceberg. Most of the claimed evidence (such as your picture) is not in its original location and cannot be dated and properly verified, unlike standard practice in archaeology and paleontology. This means it smells of hoax from the get-go, but ... even if the depiction is an actual ancient artifact, this is no guarantee that the creature was living when found by man.I suggest you read The First Fossil Hunters for some interesting insight into the process of turning prehistoric fossil finds into myths (notice that the picture on the cover is exactly the same as the 6th one in your article): It should be no surprise that fossils of dinosaurs were found by early man and turned into fantastic creatures of the imagination, many with several necks and heads, which of course would not be cited by creatortionistas as no such creatures actually existed.Imagine finding a fossil plesiosaur far inland and comparing the flippers to bat wings. Compare to dragons.One thing there is never a shortage of is human imagination.btw -- which real creature is the "crocodile leopard" supposed to be from the fossil record?Look further.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

Haha yes that is logic. Warfare is what pushes technology forward. You should have learned that in school or somewhere by now. So much of the technology that exists today comes from war/military research.

In fact there is nothing to suggest a civilization even as advanced as the egyptian one was at the time they came into contact years after the flood.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

Really? Could you please discuss the scientific background knowledge required and the technology needed to construct such a device, and why you think that increased lifespan only in the Bronze Age would have been all that was needed for someone to figure it out?Then please discuss why, in light of the fact that fresh water is a universal and critical need, it was forgotten?

but(1) where is the evidence of this "technology" ???and(2) how does having "high-tech" weapons make the civilization advanced ???seems to me that advances dis-civilization.To me an advanced civilization makes use of less weapons.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

The reason people do not believe in flood cause it was a judgement on sin. christ said the last days would be like the days of noe. lets place you that time you would be laugh at noe until the flood came and took them all away.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that you cannot find the entire translated Mahabharata on the internet. It's the longest epic poem in the world. 18 books long. That is very, very long. No internet site has the whole thing that I can find; especially not in english. Books 5, 7, 12, and 13 are missing from that site. This section is in the Drona Parva (from what I am told, but I cannot find this in its entirety on the internet — too bad) Who said Noah was a scientist or an engineer? Who said he knew how to use these materials? Reverse osmosis? I doubt if he knew how to do that himself. If some carpenter these days was instructed to complete this task, he might be able to do it, but I am pretty sure that he would not remember how to build an airplane, make semipermiable membrane, create electricity, etc. I am saying that it (revers osmosis) may have been readily available to Noah to use. You don't have to know how to make a computer from scratch to use it. But he would be able to pass down that such things existed in the time before the earth was destroyed. This is why we have all of these legends and ancient art of airplanes and technology (ie. Atlantis?????) ...more later...

mf wrote:"But he would be able to pass down that such things existed in the
time before the earth was destroyed. This is why we have all of
these legends and ancient art of airplanes and technology (ie.
Atlantis?????)"Unfortunately, credible examples of the ancient technology, which mf alludes to above, are non-existent. There is simply no hard evidence that the lost civilizations and technology, which mf discusses above, exists outside of the imagiantions of alternative archaeologists, New Agers, certain Young Earth creationists, and UFO proponents.I find it curious that at the bottom of mf's post that he has linked a jpg of the digitally "retouched" picture of some strange hieroglyphics from a lentil at the Temple of Osiris at Abydos as illustrated on the "Pharaoh's Helicopter?" web page at:http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.htmlThis web page explains the alleged helicopter, the "spacecraft" that lies down and right of the helicopter, and other strange hieroglyphics are the result of the superposition of two sets of hieroglyphics over each other after the first set was filled in with material to produce a smooth surface. Subsequent weathering has removed the filling from the first set creating hieroglyphics that are composite of individual glyphs from each set. The hieroglyphics shown in the figure linked to by mf weren't intentionally carved as now seen but rather an accident of weathering revealing parts of the first sets and superimposing them with the second later set.The two superimposed sets of hieroglyphics is illustrated at:http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos3.gifIt is a part of "Pharaoh's Helicopter?" at:http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.htmlYour,Bill Birkeland

WF --Notice that your website also made reference to:(1) The "Inca Ceremonial Burial Stones that is likely from the Nasca culture ... found by Dr. Javier Cabrera." (picture 33 -- your picture is #14 on the page) -- these are exactly the stones mentioned in the TalkOrigins article (click) mentioned in my previous reply: A known hoax. (2) The "clay figurines buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Mexico. " (pictures 36, 37 and 38 on the page) -- these are exactly the figurines mentioned in the TalkOrigins article (click) also mentioned in my previous reply: Another known hoax. Two known hoaxes that continue to be shown on a website after they have been documented as hoaxes. Why should any rational person believe a single thing on this website if it won't correct the information known to be false.Now lets revisit the other picture I mentioned before -- picture #6, the greek vase picture that is identical to the cover of The First Fossil Hunters -- where the text says: Notice that (1) there is no author given for the Science News article, (2) the location and description of the vase is given on the rear inside cover of the book (I have a copy), (3) "that ancient people dug fossils" is the thesis of the book and finally (4) that the vase is already cleaned, restored and on display in a museum rather than a new find.Now I go to the ScienceNews website (http://www.sciencenews.org/) and do a search for (note the quotes to force the exact phrasing and the Boolean "and" to force both elements in the results) with this result: There is the conclusion that was quoted, but more importantly -- the fact that the title is an exact phrase and the book authors name is in the article would imply that this article is ... a book review -- the first edition hardback was published in April 2000, and a lot of reviews are done on advance copies (I would appreciate anyone with a registered subscription confirming this).In other words, this is another intentional misrepresentation of the facts, a lie to make the evidence appear as something it is not. Certainly the picture is not an "amazingly realistic dinosaurian depiction" as it does not look like any currently known dinosaur that I am aware of. More to the point, the book goes into great detail about the false reconstruction of the (Protoceratops fossil) evidence into the mythical griffin (wikipedia description): Obviously not a mistake you make with contemporary, local creatures. You can read more about the book from NonFictionReviews.com - Fossil Hunting by the Ancients. The book also talks about the fossils that are likely to have been misinterpreted by the ancients as giants.As far as that webpage goes in my opinion, that is three errors shown on it, so it is totally unreliable as a source. I would hope you learn from this and try to do better background work on any future links, but I won't hold my breath (from experience).Enjoy.{{edit fixes url link}}[This message has been edited by AbbyLeever, 03-28-2004]

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist

We seem to be pretty remote from considerations of the ark.Adminnemooseus

Lindum wrote in Message 28:"That "excerpt" doesn't appear in any version of the Mahabharata
that I can find. Seems to have been pieced together from the
various books by/for UFO conspiracy theorists. Here's a few
lines I've found from another translation."Mf wrote in Message 40:"Maybe that has something to do with the fact that you cannot find
the entire translated Mahabharata on the internet. It's the longest
epic poem in the world. 18 books long. That is very, very long. No
internet site has the whole thing that I can find; especially not
in english. Books 5, 7, 12, and 13 are missing from that site. This
section is in the Drona Parva (from what I am told, but I cannot
find this in its entirety on the internet — too bad)"The reason that this "excerpt" can't be found by Lindum is that it is a complete and utter fabrication. According to Colin Biggs, this "excerpt" was created by "cutting, splicing and recombining of unrelated excerpts; and the making of adjustments and 'improvements' to the translated texts to suite their convenience from various parts of the Mahabharata by:1. Drake, W.R. Spacemen in the Ancient East, Neville Spearmanand2. Leslie, D. & Adamski, G. 1953, Flying Saucers Have
Landed, British Book Centre, Inc.This dishonest "excerpt" was created by these authors to support their claims of extraterrestrials having visited Earth.The orgin of the above "except" is discussed in:1. The Epics of Ancient India -
Their Relevance to Ufology by Colin Biggs
Page Not Found - UFO sightings, meetings : UFO sightings, meetingsand2. The Mahabharata and claims for atomic weapons
Page not foundAnother example of likely fraudulent evidence involving claims of ancient nuclear warfare and weapons is:"ANCIENT CITY FOUND, IRRADIATED FROM ATOMIC BLAST
This file shared with KeelyNet courtesy of Bryant
Stavely. Excerpt from the World Island Review,
January 1992."It appears that this article is a complete fraud, as discussed in "Re: Strange Geneology" at:Page not foundAlso, in "Ancient "Radioactive Skeletons" of India", it is argued that claims about ancient radioactive skeletons having been found in India are the result of obviously sloppy, if not upright deceptive scholarship as discussed at:Page not foundIt seems like the topic of ancient nuclear warfare / weapons contains a lot of alleged evidence that suffers from very careless scholarship to outright fraud. Thus, a person needs to verify just everything that is offered as evdience for ancient nuclear warfare / weapons.Yours,Bill

especially any fresh input on the water problem. What we have so far is(1) "it's a miracle, I'm well" (Bill Cosby, ark expert) and
(2) it's impossible

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist