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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 122 of 329 (9580)
05-13-2002 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Jet
05-13-2002 2:25 PM


Since you concede the fallacy of guilt by association, why are you continuing to use it?
This is a science discussion. If the source of some of your evidence is God then you need to give him a scientific foundation. As I keep repeating, my interest in this debate stems from the Creationist threat to science education. I'm not really concerned about someone going to a school board and saying they know the Biblical account is correct because God answered their prayers and that therefore Creationism should be taught in science class.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Jet, posted 05-13-2002 2:25 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Jet, posted 05-13-2002 3:34 PM Percy has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 329 (9590)
05-13-2002 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
05-13-2002 2:41 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percipient:
[B]Since you concede the fallacy of guilt by association, why are you continuing to use it?
***O.K. You lost me on that one. Unless, of course, Percy could possibly be guilty of actually using a strawman tactic.***Jet
Originally posted by Percipient:
This is a science discussion. If the source of some of your evidence is God then you need to give him a scientific foundation. As I keep repeating, my interest in this debate stems from the Creationist threat to science education. I'm not really concerned about someone going to a school board and saying they know the Biblical account is correct because God answered their prayers and that therefore Creationism should be taught in science class.
***There is no need to play games here, Percy. Archeology has proven the Bible correct over, and over again, but no one has ever been able to disprove it, although many have tried. Archeology has confirmed again and again what individual scientists and archeologists have said was pure fantasy and fairy tale. If there is a "Creationist threat to science education", as you put it, then the threat is that the fallacy of evolution will finally be dismissed as the total bunk that even many scientists are now admitting that it is. If evolution had any real validity in science, then nothing could threaten it. But as it is, the more studies that are done, and the more that science advances, the more ridiculous evolution is shown to be. I suppose if I was an evolutionist, I would feel threatened too.***Jet
Shalom
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 05-13-2002 2:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by joz, posted 05-13-2002 3:38 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 05-13-2002 4:17 PM Jet has replied
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 05-13-2002 7:01 PM Jet has replied
 Message 130 by mark24, posted 05-14-2002 11:40 AM Jet has not replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 329 (9591)
05-13-2002 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jet
05-13-2002 3:34 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jet:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
There is no need to play games here, Percy. Archeology has proven the Bible correct over, and over again, but no one has ever been able to disprove it, although many have tried. Archeology has confirmed again and again what individual scientists and archeologists have said was pure fantasy and fairy tale.
4 words...
Global flood....
Evidence....
Where....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jet, posted 05-13-2002 3:34 PM Jet has not replied

RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 329 (9593)
05-13-2002 4:00 PM


Then the Oddessy and the Illiad must be a historical documents also since the archeoligal evidence shows the existance of Troy. Therefore the the rest of it must be 100% accurate also.
I guess no one has heard of the saying "Based upon actual events."
Here's another wonderment... Pray to god and you will recieve enligntenment.. What if I don't? Or what if I do and God says the Bible is full of poop? Then what? Do I go back to the bible for further answers? I think I will write my own bible, proclaim myself God, tell everyone to to pray to me and I will send them the answers. Funny thing is, according the the Church(Vatican and Greek Orthodox, you know the founding church) your prayers aren't HEARD by god, hence the confessional. Unless the people who FOUNDED the 1st Church, you know the guys who now sit at the head of the church were wrong, and now the Protestants REALLY know the word of God. Funny how all these catholics have such different ideas about the Word of God and how its inturpreted...
[This message has been edited by RedVento, 05-13-2002]

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 126 of 329 (9594)
05-13-2002 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jet
05-13-2002 3:34 PM


Percy writes:

Since you concede the fallacy of guilt by association, why are you continuing to use it?
Jet writes:

O.K. You lost me on that one. Unless, of course, Percy could possibly be guilty of actually using a strawman tactic.
I'm referring to your "Adolf Hitler...Darwinian Evolutionist" signature. How would you feel if evolutionists closed with quotes signed with "Timothy McVeigh...Creationist"?
As for the rest, I've rarely seen so many fallacies crammed into a single paragraph. What dream world are you living in?

Archeology has proven the Bible correct over, and over again...
The Bible is full of both history and myth. Much of it is about real places and real events, much of it is not. There is no evidence consistent with the six days of Creation, and no geological evidence of a world-wide flood ever, let alone within the last 10,000 years.

The fallacy of evolution will finally be dismissed as the total bunk that even many scientists are now admitting that it is.
Creationists have been making this silly claim for the past 50 years. If there were any truth to it Creationism would long ago have become a staple in the science class and we wouldn't be having this debate.

If evolution had any real validity in science, then nothing could threaten it.
It isn't evolution that is threatened but science education. The threat occurs when Creationists bring their arguments not to journals and conferences but to school boards and state legislatures.

But as it is, the more studies that are done, and the more that science advances, the more ridiculous evolution is shown to be.
Any studies in particular that you're thinking of?

I suppose if I was an evolutionist, I would feel threatened too.
As I've said several times now, it isn't evolution that is threatened, but science education.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jet, posted 05-13-2002 3:34 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Mister Pamboli, posted 05-13-2002 7:06 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 139 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:31 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 127 of 329 (9604)
05-13-2002 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jet
05-13-2002 3:34 PM


Getting back to the original question, if science is based upon building frameworks of understand around bodies of information and evidence, while your approach is based upon revelation, prayer and reflection, then how can you claim your views should be taught as science?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jet, posted 05-13-2002 3:34 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:34 PM Percy has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 128 of 329 (9605)
05-13-2002 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Percy
05-13-2002 4:17 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Jet writes:

O.K. You lost me on that one. Unless, of course, Percy could possibly be guilty of actually using a strawman tactic.
I'm referring to your "Adolf Hitler...Darwinian Evolutionist" signature. How would you feel if evolutionists closed with quotes signed with "Timothy McVeigh...Creationist"?

Or you could close with the following quotes from Mein Kampf - by Adolf Hitler, Creationist ...
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
But that would be a bit sick wouldn't it? Quite as bad as Jet's distasteful little tactic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 05-13-2002 4:17 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Jeff, posted 05-13-2002 7:47 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 329 (9606)
05-13-2002 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Mister Pamboli
05-13-2002 7:06 PM


Well, let's try it out.....
regards,
jeff
------------------
"I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Adolf Hitler 1923 - Creationist, Man of God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Mister Pamboli, posted 05-13-2002 7:06 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 130 of 329 (9634)
05-14-2002 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jet
05-13-2002 3:34 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
***There is no need to play games here, Percy. Archeology has proven the Bible correct over, and over again, but no one has ever been able to disprove it, although many have tried. Archeology has confirmed again and again what individual scientists and archeologists have said was pure fantasy and fairy tale.

Ok, mate, here’s the challenge. Show us what archaeology has shown us about the bible that science thinks is pure fantasy & fairy tale.
ALL archaeology has done for the bible is to confirm that SOME of it has a real world setting. But that was never in contest, was it? Not even by individual scientists.
Archaeology hasn’t been able to show the existence of God, show that the resurrection took place, that everything was made in a week, etc. Actually, any part of the bible that is in contention, archaeology hasn’t been able to shed any light on. Also, archaeology shows that there were thriving cultures that managed to sail straight through the flood without getting wet, imagine!
quote:
Originally posted by Jet:

But as it is, the more studies that are done, and the more that science advances, the more ridiculous evolution is shown to be.

What studies? Please be specific, & provide references.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jet, posted 05-13-2002 3:34 PM Jet has not replied

Strawman
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 329 (9899)
05-18-2002 4:55 AM


I don't know what has been typed so far and I am not going to read 9 pages of information, so I'll put in my opinion.
If it's been typed in before, then ignore it. Thanks
A lot of people look at the Bible as a teacher would a test and try to find mistakes/contradictions within it. But the Bible wasn't intended to be and isn't a test. It isn't a science book, history book, or anything like that.
The Bible is just here for us get to know God. It's meaning and purpose is just that and is being accomplished, now where is the contradiction within that?
Here's a quote from Pastor Steve:
"Your questioning these peripheral contradictions makes me think that maybe you’re reading the Bible as if you were a copy editor, making sure everything is correct before sending it to the printer. If you’re reading the Bible this way, you could be getting the details but missing its point.
The Bible isn’t a manuscript free of all typos, yet here’s why God gave it to us: The whole Bible was given to us by inspiration from God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives; it straightens us out and helps us do what is right. It is God’s way of making us well prepared at every point, fully equipped to do good to everyone 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Since God’s chosen to communicate His Word through mistake-making humans, there are errors or contradictions. What’s amazing to me is how much consistency there really is.
I’m also amazed at how the Bible’s main points really open up a person’s life to the transforming power of God. And that’s a miraclenot the absence of typos!" (pastor steve)
Thank you for your time. I hope that I haven't re-typed something which has already been typed.
Tim

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by mark24, posted 05-18-2002 8:23 AM Strawman has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 132 of 329 (9901)
05-18-2002 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Strawman
05-18-2002 4:55 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Strawman:
Since God’s chosen to communicate His Word through mistake-making humans, there are errors or contradictions. What’s amazing to me is how much consistency there really is.
Tim

How can you tell what has been added/deleted/mistranslated in ALL the bibles re. the original text? Especially if the "original" source was orally transmitted?
How can you tell if the consistency is indicative of what is true, given that we don't know what EXACTLY was in the original text?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Strawman, posted 05-18-2002 4:55 AM Strawman has not replied

Strawman
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 329 (9932)
05-18-2002 4:59 PM


>How can you tell if the consistency is indicative of what is true, >given that we don't know what EXACTLY was in the original text?
Since we don't know EXACTLY, then opinion can go either way. I still stand by my post.
I'll respond later on tonight.
Tim

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by gene90, posted 05-18-2002 6:21 PM Strawman has not replied
 Message 136 by mark24, posted 05-18-2002 11:18 PM Strawman has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 134 of 329 (9936)
05-18-2002 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Strawman
05-18-2002 4:59 PM


If the Bible is neither a science book nor a history text, then why do we have Young-Earth Creationism? (By the way, I agree with you on those two points)
Also an apparent contradiction:
Reconcile Deuteronomy 23:2-4 with John 3:16.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Strawman, posted 05-18-2002 4:59 PM Strawman has not replied

Strawman
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 329 (9949)
05-18-2002 10:44 PM


Why do we have Young Earth Creationism?
To be honest with you, some Christians are just ignorant and make embarassing attempts to make Christianity a science, when it really isn't.

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 136 of 329 (9952)
05-18-2002 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Strawman
05-18-2002 4:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Strawman:
>How can you tell if the consistency is indicative of what is true, >given that we don't know what EXACTLY was in the original text?
Since we don't know EXACTLY, then opinion can go either way. I still stand by my post.
I'll respond later on tonight.
Tim

Pls do, but my point is you DON'T KNOW what to accept as truth or not. Therefore it is JUST opinion.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Strawman, posted 05-18-2002 4:59 PM Strawman has not replied

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