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Author Topic:   What would you have God do?
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 104 (98056)
04-06-2004 8:42 AM


Here's a question which I read about in recently in The Paradox of God by Clifford Pickover. Its designed to stimulate discussion as to what constitutes acceptable proof (by 'proof' here, I mean evidence that wil convince you) for a deity, and whether there could ever be such a thing.
It was, I think, originally aimed at atheists, but I've managed to think up an equally demanding (though slightly contrived) question for theists alike.
For non-theists
You're walking along some flat grassy plains somewhere, no-one around you for miles, when you hear a deep, booming, voice coming from the sky calling your name.
"Who's there?" you say.
"I am God" says the voice.
Now, naturally being atheist, or agnostic, you haven't readily subscribed to the notion of God previously and you're frankly sceptical. Although there is nobody around for miles, it could simply be a prank you don't understand, or alien contact or a whole slew of outlandish, yet plausible, other possibilities.
"I don't believe you" you say defiantly.
"I am God. Honest. I can do anything." says the voice.
"What would you have me do to prove it to you?"
What would you have the voice do to convince you?
For theists
You're walking along some flat grassy plains somewhere, no-one around you for miles, when you hear a deep, booming, voice coming from the sky calling your name.
"Who's there?" you say.
"I am God. That whom you refer to in your prayers"*. says the voice.
Now naturally being theist, you do not automatically discount the fact that this might be God speaking to you (of course it might also be demons, or djinn, or whatever). It might even be aliens. Or just a prank where you can't see how this is done.
"That which you worship is wrong." says the voice.
This convinces you that this is not God speaking.
"You're not God" you say.
"I am God. Honest. I can do anything." says the voice.
"What would you have me do to prove it to you?"
What would you have the voice do to convince you?
PE
* assuming here that we're talking about a theist who prays to God. If not, try the non-theist's question.
[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 04-06-2004]

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by mike the wiz, posted 04-06-2004 7:53 PM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 04-06-2004 7:58 PM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 11 by SRO2, posted 04-07-2004 5:59 AM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 19 by Coragyps, posted 04-07-2004 10:48 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 41 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 04-08-2004 6:24 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 43 by Zachariah, posted 04-09-2004 1:41 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 44 by sidelined, posted 04-09-2004 2:33 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 104 (98348)
04-07-2004 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by mike the wiz
04-06-2004 7:53 PM


I would ask, "what is my name?"
Mike, the voice has already called you by name.
Maybe I didn't set out the question clearly enough, or you misunderstood, but the way your answer currently stands, it appears that if the voice told you your name, you would abandon belief in Christianity (remember, you could have this voice move mountains for you, or do absolutely anything).
I can't believe this was your intention.
[If your post was sarcasm, I must warn you that I had a humour bypass some years ago. I wouldn't know funny if it kicked me in the nads.]
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by mike the wiz, posted 04-06-2004 7:53 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 04-07-2004 10:37 AM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 104 (98349)
04-07-2004 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by mark24
04-06-2004 8:33 PM


Next week's lottery numbers are quite good, but if the voice got them right (even repeatedly over successive trials) then would that convince you that the voice was God? I'd still find it difficult myself.
Personally, I'd think that the voice had some way of predicting lottery numbers - it didn't mean that it created the Universe. The technology of any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from magic.
Having said that, if it could predict lottery numbers, I'd do whatever it asked me to.
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by mark24, posted 04-06-2004 8:33 PM mark24 has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 104 (98350)
04-07-2004 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
04-06-2004 8:36 PM


Come to think of it, why wouldn't God just make me convinced? That would be evidence that it's God - the fact that I wouldn't even consider that it wasn't God.
That's exactly the answer I had! I'd ask the voice to "make me believe in you, then". It has a certain elegance to it.
What if the God were Willowtree's God though, who was omnimax but for the fact that He couldn't read your mind when it came to a trust decision about Him nor could He make you believe? (see this thread). In this case, you have to get God to demonstrate something to you.
This obviously reflects my personal biases, but I can't think of anything that could convince me that this voice was in fact God (and not some super advanced aliens). I generally find the idea of extra-terrestrials to be significantly more plausible than the idea of God.
PE
edited to add link + corect speling
[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 04-07-2004]

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 04-06-2004 8:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2004 5:17 AM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 104 (98357)
04-07-2004 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
04-07-2004 5:17 AM


I can see that God missed a trick when He was choosing His apostles, Crash.
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2004 5:17 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 104 (98365)
04-07-2004 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by SRO2
04-07-2004 5:59 AM


Re: Atheist response
That would convince you that this voice was God? Is this a reasonable conclusion to draw, in your opinion?
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke, "Technology and the Future"
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by SRO2, posted 04-07-2004 5:59 AM SRO2 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 104 (98407)
04-07-2004 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by RingoKid
04-07-2004 10:20 AM


Ringokid writes:
"then make me God also"
I like that one, but don't agree with...
Ringokid writes:
...that's the thing isn't it ??? We all want proof NOW, when the truth is we aren't sufficiently evolved to handle the truth but once we are, we will be God for to know the mind of God is to be God
Couldn't God "sufficiently evolve" you a little quicker? How hard can that be? Or stop time altogether, while He puts together the necessary widgets and doohickeys to turn you into God?
You're also implicitly assuming that God has the power to create an equal, which may or may not be true (depending on which version of God you believe in).
PE
edit: why can't I f***ing type properly?
[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 04-07-2004]

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RingoKid, posted 04-07-2004 10:20 AM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by SRO2, posted 04-07-2004 10:45 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 30 by RingoKid, posted 04-07-2004 5:55 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 104 (98412)
04-07-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
04-07-2004 10:37 AM


Re: Test the spirits before humping a cow
Hmmm, so if I've got you correctly, you'd ask the voice something like:
"Tell me what I'm thinking and if you can do that, tell me all the prayers you've received from me" (only all in your head).
If the voice could do this, thats no doubt mightily impressive, but it still could be the devil. To satisfy yourself that the voice wasn't the devil you would test the spirits, to test that the voice did not go against scripture.
Out of interest, what would you actually say (or think, in your case) here, to test for the devil? Couldn't the devil sometimes go with scripture, just to deceive (especially as he knows what you're thinking)?
Incidentally, what's interesting here from my perspective is that no matter how pants-wettingly powerful this voice was, you still would not abandon your existing beliefs. Indeed it would have to be the voice who would have to conform to your opinion of him. This is actually quite similar to me in a weird kind of way - I can't imagine any single demonstration of power which didn't mess with my free-will which could convince me that I was in the presence of God and not some impish Cosmic rapscallion. Not sure if that emans I'm being dogmatic about things or not. I mean, just because the voice could read your mind doesn't mean he created the Universe.
Just my 2p.
PE
PS Is cow humping specifically prohibited?

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 04-07-2004 10:37 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 104 (98418)
04-07-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-07-2004 11:03 AM


Hi Buz,
Let's not forget - the whole voice thing could be a prank, or a David Blaine-esque illusion perpetrated by people who were well versed in scripture.
How would you satisfy yourself that it wasn't pranksters? Would you ask for a miracle (like MtW did) first and then filter on the basis on scriptural concordance?
Same question I asked MtW, could the devil not pretend to follow scripture, in order to decieve you?
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 04-07-2004 11:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 104 (98435)
04-07-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Loudmouth
04-07-2004 1:29 PM


The arch-skeptic in me is wondering why you would rather attribute the sun stopping in the sky to God rather than to mysterious aliens who were just pretending to be God. Or to an unsuspected well-measured dose of mescaline extract.
Isn't Alyssa Milano used as proof that there is a God?
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Loudmouth, posted 04-07-2004 1:29 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by Loudmouth, posted 04-07-2004 5:02 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 104 (98635)
04-08-2004 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Sarde
04-07-2004 4:06 PM


Sarde writes:
think I'd ask Him/him/it to transport me to Heaven right away. Satan couldn't do that, right?
Satan could make you think you were in Heaven though, couldn't he?
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Sarde, posted 04-07-2004 4:06 PM Sarde has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 104 (98636)
04-08-2004 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Loudmouth
04-07-2004 5:02 PM


Loudmouth,
You make a good point about the energies required to actually stop the Sun. Did you ever see that David Copperfield special when he made the Statue of Liberty disappear? That would require telekinetic energy right off the scale, but he still managed it. Could something similar be done for the Sun and make everyone on the Earth believe it?
I'm presuming your answer to this is "yes", but that you think its more implausible then the voice itself being God.
Loudmouth writes:
However, hallucinations due to drugs are usually not limited to one aberration, in this case the sun standing still in the sky (ie the earth stops rotating). I would expect other strange things to be happening that no one else was witnessing.
Ah, but we're talking special implausible alien drugs here!
Another angle is that with appropriate electrodes inserted into your brain, the voice could make you experience anything it wanted (including forgetting about the insertion), if it had the technology.
Just for a little anecdote, a friend of mine got stuck in reverse after ingesting the aforementioned controlled substance. I don't mean in his car, but rather running backwards uncontrollably. He had to be tackled, which was no easy task since he's such a fast bastard. This is hardly the behavior that gives credence to a proclamation that the sun is standing still in the sky.
OK, so mescaline was a bad example. Curious about your friend though - once sober did he ever manage to explain why he was running backwards so quickly?
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Loudmouth, posted 04-07-2004 5:02 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 104 (98637)
04-08-2004 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by RingoKid
04-07-2004 5:55 PM


Ringokid
You're the only one so far to take God's feelings into account!
The voice is offering you the chance to be selfish and demand convincing evidence for His existence now. Are you really saying that you wouldn't be interested in taking up this offer?
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RingoKid, posted 04-07-2004 5:55 PM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 104 (98638)
04-08-2004 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Asgara
04-08-2004 2:20 AM


If the goal is to make Bush appear intelligent to others, then God could just remove everyone else's brain.
No wait, that still wouldn't work...
PE

"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Asgara, posted 04-08-2004 2:20 AM Asgara has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 104 (103833)
04-29-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by crashfrog
04-27-2004 6:37 PM


I think perhaps what you meant is that there is nothing that this entity could do that you could prove to other people is convincing.
Actually Crash, that isn't even true - you could ask the voice to convince you and give you the ability to convince other people
PE

404 Not Found

This message is a reply to:
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