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Author Topic:   What makes you unbelieve Crash ?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 1 of 200 (99413)
04-12-2004 12:35 PM


Crashfrog writes:
As far as I could tell, I had such a relationship. Then I came to know that God doesn't exist, and that the only relationship I had was with myself.
How do you know that you have such a relationship? How do you know you're not just talking to yourself and making coincidences out to be communications from God?
Many have said a similar thing to me. Many have said that in believing in God they are trying to get blood from a stone. But the scripture says the Kingdom of God is within you. When you find the blood comes from your hand, when you are squeezing the stone, you infact - look for blood where it doesn't exist. The blood came from you because the Kingdom of God is within YOU.
As for coincidences, I assume that you mean when we pray?
When a prayer comes to pass it could seem like coincidence. I tell you I have had so many of what you would call "hits" that coincidence becomes an irrelevance to the mind when concerning prayer. I have found that when I pray for things I need or for things that are for others - they come to pass. Infact, Crash - I tell you no lie when I say that all of my prayers are eventually hits. I know this won't convince you of anything, it is not the hits that make the believer. But I know for a fact if you were a believer then you might have had "hits" that you explained away as coincidence.
But why do you require such things in order to believe? I have discovered that it is the reality of our existence that is miracle enough.
Crash, you yourself have recently said that you wouldn't believe even if God appeared to you? What then would make you believe?
If you set it up so that nothing would make you believe, why do you think we are of a similar nature?
PS (I made this cos Crash seems to ask this a lot, and I often wonder why he seeks to know why we believe) How can he "know" God doesn't exist?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-12-2004 1:05 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2004 9:45 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:01 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 30 by coffee_addict, posted 04-14-2004 4:00 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 42 by nator, posted 04-15-2004 10:18 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 200 (99421)
04-12-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 12:35 PM


A quick note...
quote:
How can he "know" God doesn't exist?
Don't make me hit you with a rolled-up list of logical fallacies, Mike. We've been over this before.

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 12:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 1:58 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 200 (99434)
04-12-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dan Carroll
04-12-2004 1:05 PM


Oh no, it's not that less of a chance deludant Dan Carroll.
I'm still convinced I can convert you. Maybe I am deluded afterall. This one's for Crash though, as he gives us tasters but never comes clean. I want to know what makes him unbelieve, or what makes him think we should not believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-12-2004 1:05 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-12-2004 3:50 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:06 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 200 (99462)
04-12-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 1:58 PM


quote:
Oh no, it's not that less of a chance deludant Dan Carroll.
Now how could I leave my good old buddy "won't argue the reason behind the statement 'less of a chance,' just likes to disagree with it" Mike the Wiz?
quote:
I'm still convinced I can convert you.
Good luck, guy.
quote:
This one's for Crash though, as he gives us tasters but never comes clean. I want to know what makes him unbelieve, or what makes him think we should not believe.
I think he's summed it up pretty well in previous threads. But heck, a good Crash post is always worth a read. Go for it Crash!

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 1:58 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 9:14 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 5 of 200 (99521)
04-12-2004 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dan Carroll
04-12-2004 3:50 PM


I suppose I am particularly interested in people with a similar view to his. If he is uninterested, then I aim the post at similar people. As I say, there are a lot who insist on God not existing and say to me that when they believed it was like trying to get blood from a stone. Some people even say that they still have faith but it is in other things, like themselves. They blame God even though it is only them who have changed their minds. If they changed their minds back again - they might start to realize that God never went anywhere - they did.
Now how could I leave my good old buddy "won't argue the reason behind the statement 'less of a chance,' just likes to disagree with it" Mike the Wiz?
Well, atleast we are still buddies. I thought after that debate, you might go and sulk, as I thought you were angry with me. Some people take things personally.
Okay, I know there is nothing that will convert you. Maybe it's a "been there done that" thing for you. Or, maybe my preach methods are louzy. We'll do a deal. If I become evo you become christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-12-2004 3:50 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Cynic1, posted 04-12-2004 9:41 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Cynic1
Member (Idle past 6074 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 200 (99525)
04-12-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 9:14 PM


If by similar people, you include agnostics, I will elaborate on this agnostic's views. If not, I still have a few points of contention with your post.
1) To blame something, one must first admit that it exists. Since atheists do not believe in God, they cannot blame him for anything.
2) Atheists usually do not think God "went" anywhere, they believe he never existed at all.
Your post just kind of comes off sounding like atheists are angry at a God who has abandoned them, rather than believing he is a myth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 9:14 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 200 (99527)
04-12-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 12:35 PM


But the scripture says the Kingdom of God is within you. When you find the blood comes from your hand, when you are squeezing the stone, you infact - look for blood where it doesn't exist. The blood came from you because the Kingdom of God is within YOU.
Mmmm, pardon, Mike, but no scriptures state that the kingom of God is in everyone. Getting the frog converted means getting the kingdom of God into Mr Frog via the Holy Spirit new birth. This experience get's the kingdom of God into our friend, the frog. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Or have I musunderstood you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 12:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 9:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 8 of 200 (99529)
04-12-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
04-12-2004 9:45 PM


Well, people say they "were" believers. I must conclude that they mean to say - they were full believers. If they were - which I find hard to believe, then surely they were born again. Crash, regularly says that he had faith, yet the parable of the sower seems relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2004 9:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 200 (99532)
04-12-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 12:35 PM


I tell you I have had so many of what you would call "hits" that coincidence becomes an irrelevance to the mind when concerning prayer.
Grouping is a feature of random distributions.
A million people play the lottery and only one of them gets to win. To that one guy, it's a pretty big deal, and if he's an average guy, he's got some problems that this money is going to totally take care of.
So it's no surprise that it feels like an answered prayer to him. Winning the lottery seems so impossible that he can only conclude that it's the hand of God. But the significance changes when you look at those other 999 thousand folks who didn't win. Oh, they could have used the money too, don't you think?
It's not a matter of how many of your prayers have been answered. It's a matter of how answered prayer follows the exact random distribution we would expect if "answered prayer" was just conincidence. Heck, it gets even better if you'll take "no" as an answer to prayer - then it's not even possible to falsify prayer.
Crash, you yourself have recently said that you wouldn't believe even if God appeared to you?
It's not that I wouldn't believe what was right in front of my face. But God's a pretty big deal, and so any entity claiming to be God is going to have to meet some pretty high standards.
If you set it up so that nothing would make you believe
I don't entirely understand why you think I hold that position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 12:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 10:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 200 (99535)
04-12-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 1:58 PM


I want to know what makes him unbelieve, or what makes him think we should not believe.
You can believe what you like, for whatever reasons you like. I've never told you otherwise. Believe in God, if you want. Why should I care?
The reason I don't believe in your God is because it's obvious to me that it doesn't exist. The universe we live in doesn't look the way it would if the God in the Bible actually existed. Instead, it looks like one of two things is true - God acts like he doesn't exist and lets things happen at random; or else God doesn't exist at all.
Since I don't think the first one is true, I conclude the second. Ultimately there's no way to distinguish between them - there's no test you could devise to substantiate the existence of a God who acts like he doesn't exist. It's just that I don't generally assume the existence of entities who could never be substantiated, so, ergo, atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 1:58 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by SRO2, posted 04-12-2004 10:11 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 10:23 PM crashfrog has replied

  
SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 200 (99537)
04-12-2004 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
04-12-2004 10:06 PM


My Avitar
You can look at my Avitar and deduce there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:06 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 12 of 200 (99538)
04-12-2004 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
04-12-2004 10:01 PM


I don't entirely understand why you think I hold that position.
Well, I read your stuff about God sometimes. You seem to mention him quite a bit, and you insist on his none-existence. I don't mean to put words in your mouth but I've heard you say stuff similar to "God doesn't exist" or "I realized he doesn't exist". With your lottery example, this also seems like you are setting it up so nothing can make you believe, almost like a defense mechanism.
If an answered prayer isn't enough for you, or him appearing, I must wonder what would convince you. Remember, this pertains to you - it can't really be anything silly like - "I want the world to be like this....."
It's not a matter of how many of your prayers have been answered. It's a matter of how answered prayer follows the exact random distribution we would expect if "answered prayer" was just conincidence.
So you basically think I should ignore the fact that all of my prayers have been answered?
Isn't that like saying to the man who won the lottery; "Listen, you didn't win the lottery afterall - because nobody else did"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:20 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 04-12-2004 10:31 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 200 (99543)
04-12-2004 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 10:11 PM


You seem to mention him quite a bit, and you insist on his none-existence.
Yes. I've come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist.
But like any reasonable person all my conclusions are tentative, subject to revision in the face of new evidence.
The current evidence to me deomstrates that God doesn't exist. But concievably, evidence could exist that would convince me otherwise. So it's not like my mind couldn't be changed. It's just that I haven't seen anything that has, yet.
So you basically think I should ignore the fact that all of my prayers have been answered?
No. But I ask you to compare your outcomes against the outcomes of the other 6 billion people on Earth, many of whom w might assume pray just as hard as you. And then consider the odds of your prayers being answered just by random. Say, for a given prayer, it's one in a million.
Ok, one in a million odds. Sounds unlikely, right? But is it really so unreasonable to suggest that there's 999 thousand other people who prayed for the same kind of thing and didn't ever get it? Not to me, I guess.
Isn't that like saying to the man who won the lottery; "Listen, you didn't win the lottery afterall - because nobody else did"?
No, it'S saying "you won the lottery, yes, but it didn't take anything but random chance for that to happen. Somebody had to win; there's absolutely no significance to the fact that it was you."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 10:11 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 200 (99544)
04-12-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
04-12-2004 10:06 PM


You can believe what you like, for whatever reasons you like. I've never told you otherwise. Believe in God, if you want. Why should I care?
I know. But in the OP you seemed interested in knowing why a believer thinks he has arelationship with God. This is a topic I have planned recently, and your timing was helpful. It is not an attack on you, as there are others who have similar questions for me.
The reason I don't believe in your God is because it's obvious to me that it doesn't exist. The universe we live in doesn't look the way it would if the God in the Bible actually existed.
I don't get it. The reason I do believe in my God is it is obvious to me he exists.
God acts like he doesn't exist
if only he acted like he didn't exist with me, then I would not believe. But I have no reason to not believe, I cannot undo my answered prayers, I concede it may seem he is not around at times, but that is not a sufficient reason for me to not believe.
It just seems that you vehemently insist on his none-existence, this interests me - that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:06 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 04-12-2004 10:31 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 200 (99547)
04-12-2004 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 10:23 PM


The reason I do believe in my God is it is obvious to me he exists.
Right, and when we talk about God, what I'm trying to show you is that you can only reach that conclusion through faulty reasoning - fallacious induction from evidence.
The conclusion that the God of the Bible exists is not supported by the evidence. It's fine for you to believe in God. But you're mistaken if you state that the evidence supports that belief. That's generally what gets me into the conversation - not that you believe in God, but that you think there's evidence for God. There's not, and I think that's a mistake that deserves to be corrected.
It just seems that you vehemently insist on his none-existence, this interests me - that's all.
That's fine. I'm convinced that there are no logical fallacies in my induction from the evidence, so there's no reason for me to doubt that my conclusion is inaccurate. It would take new evidence to convicne me otherwise, and that's it. It's gotta take something new, something no one has ever seen before, to convince me that God exists. (Obviously that evidence would have other qualities besides being new.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 04-12-2004 10:23 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 04-13-2004 6:58 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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