Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Can God lie?
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 3 of 79 (99405)
04-12-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by xBobTheAlienx
04-11-2004 10:29 PM


Why would God create a source (the Bible) that portrays Himself as a liar ?
If the claim is true that the Bible is the word of God then anything written therein that is interpreted to say God is lying would be ridiculous.
If the claim is untrue (Bible not the word of God) then anyone cannot use the claim momentarily to accuse God of lying.
The passage of scripture concerning Ahab is a chilling revelation revealing that IF you persist in rebellion (in Ahab's case idol worship) He can make you believe something that is not true for the purpose of getting you killed.
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by xBobTheAlienx, posted 04-11-2004 10:29 PM xBobTheAlienx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Darwin Storm, posted 04-12-2004 12:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 45 by arachnophilia, posted 10-03-2004 6:19 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 79 (99486)
04-12-2004 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Darwin Storm
04-12-2004 12:24 PM


Satan already did his job of getting Ahab to worship idols. God eventually reacts and in the text in question we learn about ONE of God's ways : His wrath.
What is depicted and suggested in this passage is consistent with other passages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Darwin Storm, posted 04-12-2004 12:24 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-02-2004 4:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 79 (99515)
04-12-2004 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by xBobTheAlienx
04-12-2004 1:21 PM


xBobTheAlienx quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think about it: if He cannot write a book that doesnt contradict itself, how can He make a universe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IF there be contradictions then I would agree that this is evidence supporting your claim that He did not create the universe. Notice I said "evidence", how much weight to give the evidence is another subject.
When God possesses His word I claim that it is inerrant and without contradiction. When He transfers that word to a chosen vessel for recording it instantly has the potential to become errant/contradictory.
The various versions and translations of Scripture certainly do appear to have contradictions, yet, upon strenuous study these errors can satisfactorily be explained/refuted.
The discovery of the truth as presented in the Bible takes just as much effort and brains as the discovery of truth via science.
Bob : Would you re-explain the alleged contradiction cited in post # 1 - I do not understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by xBobTheAlienx, posted 04-12-2004 1:21 PM xBobTheAlienx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by xBobTheAlienx, posted 04-13-2004 2:23 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 55 by DD2014, posted 02-19-2009 8:06 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 18 of 79 (99718)
04-13-2004 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by xBobTheAlienx
04-13-2004 2:23 PM


Let me say this in respect to the alleged omnipotence of God : There is one exception, He cannot create faith. He can provide a basis and create circumstances to extract and test faith but He cannot create the one thing He does not know : If a person will use their freedom to do otherwise to choose to trust Him by faith.
I am familiar with the church you mentioned and I agree with your assessment in general. Charismatics gloat over their experience with Christ and elevate that uniqueness to somehow make them superior members of the kingdom. The leadership of that particular church, contrary to internal opinions, adhere to standard fundementalist traits.
Without addressing the specifiics of so called contradictions contained in the Books of Kings, Chronicles, and both Samuels : We must remember that events that favor or disfavor the Northern Kingdom/Kings are slanted accordingly by their scribes, and the same goes for the Southern Kingdom/Chronicles. This is why events recorded by one kingdom disfavor the other in their record/source.
Also, contradictions should more accurately be described as descrepancies. Both sources confirm x amount of deaths, which means a battle took place, and as usual in war the defeated usually do not admit to the same number of deaths that the victor claims.
Bob : look forward to hearing from you and continuing the debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by xBobTheAlienx, posted 04-13-2004 2:23 PM xBobTheAlienx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 4:21 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 32 by Angeldust, posted 04-18-2004 1:12 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 26 of 79 (99778)
04-13-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by funkman
04-13-2004 3:53 PM


Anyone who immediately dismisses the Bible because of errors reveals their massive ignorance and/or dishonest intent. There are literally thousands of source manuscripts written and copied across Africa and Eurasia over hundreds and hundreds of years. These sources were written in Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, Syriac, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Arabic, Latin, etc,etc. Yet the common denominator amongst all these sources is a maximum 5% variation of content and this 5% variation never touches anything but very minor controversies.
Would you dismiss evolution over previous errors and minor controversies ? Would you dismiss evolution because of peppered moths and Piltdown Man ?
You have 12 frickin manuscripts for the entire works of Herodotus yet everything he says is gospel truth. The Bible is accurate, its just that the powers that be do not like what it says.
Biblical translation is very difficult and it requires the brightest minds to objectively research word meanings. Yet, some people would have you believe that difficulty equals "unknowability", they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Then there are ignorant persons who cling to this country bumpkin dismissal of Holy Writ because of the lack of numerous original sources.
Evolutionists have no explanation as to what causes the flukes and accidents that get the balls rolling (original sources if you will) yet that gaping hole in their theories is at best a minor controversy.
Likewise in Biblical translation the solid majority of sources are indeed copies of originals. When the various dead languages (greek, coptic, syriac, aramaic, ethiopic, etc.etc.); written in different locations at different times (ancient) end up saying the same thing (5% variation maximum) then guess what ? That is what the originals said and for anyone to say otherwise defies logic and intelligence.
The fact that the copy sources were produced in different places and in various dead languages at completely different times/years, all from preceding copies, and those copies from preceding copies until it was first copied from the original, and yet the content of ALL these sources contain a maximum 5% variation MEANS the Bible is accurate. No other conclusion can be made unless the facts of this post are ignored. Once again, powers that be just don't like what the Bible says so they attack via this dogmatic issue of translation difficulty equals unknowability nonsense.
Source of information : Dr. Gene Scott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 3:53 PM funkman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Brian, posted 04-15-2004 6:58 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 79 (99802)
04-13-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by funkman
04-13-2004 4:21 PM


The statement of mine that you cut and pasted is the message of the Bible
Funkman quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of sounding harsh, this is heresy. Faith comes from God. Otherwise no one would ever get saved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this statement of yours and it is completely compatible with my cut and pasted statement which you called "heresy".
Once again, God can provide a basis for faith, He can create circumstances to extract and test faith but He cannot create faith - only you/I can create that which God wants. This is why, in the Bible, faith is not defined. God seeks to see what our free will capabilities can produce in the area of trusting Him.
Hebrews 11:1 does NOT define faith - it proclaims what faith accomplishes. The rest of the chapter demonstrates examples of faith that previous persons produced in their particular circumstances.
Calvinian predestinarianism IS HERESY......PERIOD !
IF free will exists God cannot be perfectly omniscient. When any given verse of scripture says God knows "all"/"everything" Genesis 22 provides the exception to those verses.
Genesis 22:12 has God telling Abraham "Now I know thou fearest me".
This means what it says, until a certain moment arrived God did not know FOR CERTAIN if Abraham feared Him. This chapter clearly defines the strict confines of the exception of God's omniscience.
Fear is a synonym for trust and love. If you fear God you will trust God and in so doing you love God. Trusting God is the only way to demonstrate love for an invisible being.
Conclusion :
God knows all the choices we face in any given circumstance, but He does not know for certain if we will choose to use our free will to trust Him in that circumstance given the opportunity to do otherwise.
He is prepared to react in either scenario BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW FOR SURE because the potential "trustee" has free will - the ability to change mind at will. This fact, understood in this context, (Genesis 22 ) demonstrates the exception to God's omniscience.
I don't think I am right - I know I am right.
I will read your response but I will not keep arguing this subject. I do not want this topic to drift into this area against the will of the topic creator.
Thanks,
Willowtree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 4:21 PM funkman has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 29 of 79 (100299)
04-15-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
04-15-2004 6:58 AM


Willowtree quote :
______________________________________________________________________
Anyone who immediately dismisses the Bible because of errors reveals their massive ignorance and/or dishonest intent.
______________________________________________________________________
Brian's response :
______________________________________________________________________
I honestly do not think that I have ever met anyone who has done this. But you still need to explain why so many highly educated people who have spent a lifetime studying and teaching the Bible find so many errors in it.
______________________________________________________________________
Your response seems to imply that I subscribe to Biblical inerrancy - I do not. Inerrancy is a sacred cow of fundementalism. I have, in times of sheer boredom, defended inerrancy when opponent was citing some passage that could easily be explained. I find the various inerrancy topics that exist in this forum to be a complete waste of time.
When God possesses His word it is a given that it is inerrant. When He transfers that word to a chosen vessel for recording it instantly has the potential to become eligible for error. The Bible says God could of used angels to communicate His word but He declined. He purposely chose error-prone Adamkind and decided that He could live with the errors. God and His eternal genius COULD OF produced a written record that would be irrefuteable, He didn't because that would negate the need for faith and thus ruin Adamkind's reason for being.
Dr. Scott spends his entire life correcting the errors in the Bible.
My original point was to dismiss the ridiculous and prevalent notion that errancy equals unreliability/unknowability.
Brian quote :
______________________________________________________________________
I have never been impressed by this statistic, it is quite widespread on the Net, but it is never satisfactorily outlined. What exactly do you mean by this 5% figure?
______________________________________________________________________
This was your response to my claim that the content of the Bible varies 5%.
Dr. Scott says 2-3% but I went with the high.
This means, that whatever source you go to, from whatever dead language, that whatever translation is made, that the content of what is being said/communicated varies from 2-5%. This fact/claim is intended to declare that whatever the Bible says, it says with consistency, that the various sources, written in various places and times, in various dead languages are all communicating the same information with a maximum 5% variation. This is why God chose to communicate His word this way: We have irrefuteable CORROBORATION that the content within all says the same thing.
Dr. Scott presently is demonstrating this fact every week during his sermons on Romans. For about 10 weeks now he has written 3:25 on the clear boards from the greek, syriac, aramaic, coptic, arabic, and ethiopic sources/manuscripts. They all say the exact same thing with minor variations; like "through faith in his blood" or "by his blood through faith". What Dr. Scott has proven concerning the various versions is the translation error of "propitiation". All the sources just cited say "propitiatory" - huge difference theologically.
Then you present genealogy descrepancies.
Very valid questions you raise - obviously.
Brian I do not know the answers to these questions/points.
Not to make light of this evidence but to theists this is minor controversies. The common denominators are: The persons in question did indeed live. They had children, etc.etc.
The 5% variation claim is made in behalf of the entire Bible with the percent rising in certain chapters/verses and declining to nill in still others.
Your point concerning the genealogy inconsistencies is apparent. I would need to retrieve the extensive teaching Dr. Scott has conducted here and review it thoroughly.
BTW, what do you think of the LXX as a source ? I am very curious.
BTW, is Matthew's genealogy in error ?
You caught my point concerning Herodotus. I was prepared to drill you but after thinking about it I knew it was a cheesy attempt - sorry.
Some people take Herodotus at face value and I cannot figure out why.
Yes I listed greek to be a dead language. When I say greek I wrongly assume everyone already knows that I am speaking about "N.T./koinae" greek.
Brian quote :
______________________________________________________________________
It actually makes more sense for the originals to be a total mess
______________________________________________________________________
What ?
Did you accidentially fall asleep while typing this ?
If you didn't then what on Earth could this mean ?
The implications are outrageous BUT I will give you a chance to explain. I would place a happy face here if I knew how.
About Dr. Scott : He is not a writer. He has not written a book in at least 25 years, yet he has written about 20 or so books.
I study with Dr. Scott on a full time basis via my close proximity, yet anyone can do the same 24 hours a day. His teaching is 24/365 via the internet (picture and sound), satellite, short-wave radio. I also study sources that he uses which are offered by this website :
http://www.capstonebooks.com
Brian I know your expertise and interest is in the O.T.
I actually value you as a source as I rarely ever venture outside of Dr. Scott recommended sources only because there are so many. Why study sources that challenge settled issues ?
Occasionally I keep up on what the enemy is doing (Burton L. Mack types), but Dr. Scott teaches from the greatest array of sources and subjects - I never get bored and I receive a very well rounded exposure to what is relevant in these end times : God's Word. I wish you would listen to Dr. Scott as there are atheists who do for the very purpose of trying to refute him. I can't prove it but I believe he has the second highest IQ in the world.
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Brian, posted 04-15-2004 6:58 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Brian, posted 04-16-2004 5:49 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 31 by Brian, posted 04-16-2004 5:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 33 of 79 (100769)
04-18-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Angeldust
04-18-2004 1:12 AM


Agreed !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Angeldust, posted 04-18-2004 1:12 AM Angeldust has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 36 of 79 (138307)
08-30-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Prince Lucianus
07-20-2004 12:04 PM


God lied that Jacob would from now on be called Israel (or he forgot?
God calls Israel by his former name in certain context to teach the lesson that the old Jacob and all his shortcomings is still loved by God, we are to insert our name in place of Jacob and grasp the love of God.
Furthermore, he told David that his lineage would rule the kingdom forever (2 Samuel 13 & 16) which never happened.
It sure did happen.
Go here:
http://EvC Forum: GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS -->EvC Forum: GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS
He told Moses to lie to the Pharaoh: in Exodus 3:18. So, he induces lying and actually is kind to midwives because they lied to the pharaoh (Exodus 1:15).
IF God IS, then WHATEVER He does or says is righteousness.
By your silly legalistic comment on truth it is a lie to tell Nazi soldiers at your door that there are no women hiding in your basement.
Prince:
Your ignorance of basic Bible 101 stuff is embarrassing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Prince Lucianus, posted 07-20-2004 12:04 PM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Lysimachus, posted 09-03-2004 3:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 38 of 79 (139652)
09-03-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Lysimachus
09-03-2004 3:44 PM


Lysimachus writes:
Yes, the hatred eminated against the Bible (the world's most historical document) is seemingly supernatural. Just the fact that this malice exists only demonstrates that there IS a supernatural entity behind the Bible. It goes to show you that there is a war raging between good and evil--just watch atheists and critics--see how they get mad when it comes to the Bible and religion. If there was no supernatural entity behind the scriptures, there would be very little need to demonstrate their hate.
In all my points concerning the opposition to the Bible and the motives, never have I said what you say in the blue box.
Your statement is crisp and clear and so very true.
Your statement gets to the very core of the problem/opposition.
WELL SAID !
Thanks for this super point.
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Lysimachus, posted 09-03-2004 3:44 PM Lysimachus has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 42 of 79 (146920)
10-03-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by doctrbill
10-02-2004 4:31 PM


Righteousness = whatever God does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by doctrbill, posted 10-02-2004 4:31 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024