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Author Topic:   More Quantum Confusion
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 13 (120489)
06-30-2004 6:35 PM


If quantum mechanics is true and their can be infinite alternate realities, then there could be some alternate reality where God does exist and us agnostics are all buggered.
Any thoughts?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Melchior, posted 06-30-2004 8:27 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 13 (120531)
06-30-2004 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mission for Truth
06-30-2004 6:35 PM


Only if God is tied to the physical parts of the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mission for Truth, posted 06-30-2004 6:35 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 13 (120532)
06-30-2004 8:29 PM


So quantum events can only be physical? Ie: particles, light, stone, me, you, etc?

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 06-30-2004 8:47 PM Mission for Truth has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 13 (120533)
06-30-2004 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mission for Truth
06-30-2004 8:29 PM


What else is there? We've already established a long time ago that you can't tie spiritual into the physical.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mission for Truth, posted 06-30-2004 8:29 PM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 2:51 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 13 (120856)
07-01-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
06-30-2004 8:47 PM


Maybe not the physical. The matter of which we are made is only a small portion of the Universe, 4%. 23% is an exotic type of material known as "cold dark matter". And 73% is an even more exotic "dark energy". So which portion does the quantum theory hold true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 06-30-2004 8:47 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Melchior, posted 07-01-2004 3:26 PM Mission for Truth has replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 13 (120857)
07-01-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mission for Truth
07-01-2004 2:51 PM


Matter is physical.
Dark matter is physical matter which we presently can't detect because it does not send out or reflect EM-radiation.
Dark energy is not matter. It is still a physical type of energy, which might explain some physical phenomena we see in the universe.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you trying to say that there is actual matter in our universe which *isn't* physical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 2:51 PM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 3:45 PM Melchior has replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 13 (120863)
07-01-2004 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Melchior
07-01-2004 3:26 PM


To quote myself:
quote:
If quantum mechanics is true and their can be infinite alternate realities, then there could be some alternate reality where God does exist and us agnostics are all buggered.
And your reply:
quote:
Only if God is tied to the physical parts of the universe.
So, you're saying then that God would have to be more like a physical law, or made of particles, etc.? In concord with Lam who says:
quote:
We've already established a long time ago that you can't tie spiritual into the physical.
If so, then now I understand.
This message has been edited by Mission for Truth, 07-01-2004 02:54 PM
This message has been edited by Mission for Truth, 07-01-2004 02:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Melchior, posted 07-01-2004 3:26 PM Melchior has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Melchior, posted 07-01-2004 4:08 PM Mission for Truth has replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 13 (120876)
07-01-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Mission for Truth
07-01-2004 3:45 PM


I'm saying that if God is present in one universe but not another, and the only difference between them is their physical structure (different formations of matter, energy, expansion rate, whatnot) then God would be tied to one or more of those things.
You seem to say that it's okay that the universe creates God, instead of God creating the universe. Lots of theological debates can come from that, but if you are talking about God as in Jehovah, then you are way off line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 3:45 PM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Loudmouth, posted 07-01-2004 4:49 PM Melchior has not replied
 Message 11 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 7:22 PM Melchior has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 13 (120901)
07-01-2004 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Melchior
07-01-2004 4:08 PM


quote:
You seem to say that it's okay that the universe creates God, instead of God creating the universe.
I have recently reread Greg Bear's Eon and Eternity (the second book could be "Infinity", I always forget the two names confused). In these books, humans travel along a wormhole like construction that is temporal in nature. They travel so far down this construction that they end up at the beginning of the universe. In doing so the run into other species/beings that were already there and together they create a new universe through what they learn from those entities. I am not saying that this is a reflection on reality, but it does pose an interesting question. To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke, "A substantially advanced technology may appear as magic."
That is, what we sense as supernatural may just be advanced technology. What we consider impossible or implausible may very well be possible, but only inaccessible through our current theories and technologies. What we sense as supernatural may only be the destiny of human kind given enough time to understand the rules that govern the universe, and the time enough to develop the tools to manipulate these rules. What we ascribe to a diety may be within our (ie humanities) reach.
However, we would still remain physical entities of some sort. If we are to manipulate matter/energy/space/time, then we must also be within the confines of those constructs. If the God of current human religion is able to manipulate the universe, then He to must be of this universe. At least, this is my philosophical stance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Melchior, posted 07-01-2004 4:08 PM Melchior has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 7:20 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 13 (120948)
07-01-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Loudmouth
07-01-2004 4:49 PM


Makes Sense
quote:
However, we would still remain physical entities of some sort. If we are to manipulate matter/energy/space/time, then we must also be within the confines of those constructs. If the God of current human religion is able to manipulate the universe, then He to must be of this universe. At least, this is my philosophical stance.
I can see that. Which would make him subject to natural laws as well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Loudmouth, posted 07-01-2004 4:49 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Loudmouth, posted 07-01-2004 8:36 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 13 (120949)
07-01-2004 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Melchior
07-01-2004 4:08 PM


Melchior. I think you have me confused for someone that believes in God. I'm just asking theoretical questions that I think some creationists would ask, to see if they make sense. And so I can get it straight in my mind too.
This message has been edited by Mission for Truth, 07-01-2004 06:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Melchior, posted 07-01-2004 4:08 PM Melchior has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 13 (120976)
07-01-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mission for Truth
07-01-2004 7:20 PM


Re: Makes Sense
quote:
Which would make him subject to natural laws as well?
With the understanding that I am talking out of my ass, yes it would. The point is that we may not yet understand the full extent of natural laws, or how they can be manipulated by an entity that is fully within our universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-01-2004 7:20 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 07-01-2004 8:44 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 13 (120981)
07-01-2004 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Loudmouth
07-01-2004 8:36 PM


Re: Makes Sense
Speaking of entities that exist within our universe but are beyond our comprehension, you need to watch star trek more often. They have some of the best ideas for such entities.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Loudmouth, posted 07-01-2004 8:36 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
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